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Post by Deleted on Jan 26, 2022 0:11:52 GMT
Well-deserved congrats to the greatest clutch hitter in history.
And fuck Shaunessey and the rest of the racists who hate him.
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Post by schlich on Jan 26, 2022 1:49:36 GMT
WooHoo Big Papi
Are you cancelling Shaughnessey?
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Post by kelvana33 on Jan 26, 2022 14:16:42 GMT
How the hell is Ortiz in but Clemens, Bonds and the rest not?
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Post by sandogbrewin on Jan 26, 2022 14:35:50 GMT
How the hell is Ortiz in but Clemens, Bonds and the rest not? Power trip. Baseball writers are self righteous clowns. How many cheaters, gamblers etc. from the early 20th century are in HOF ? Clemens and Bonds get in with there pre-bulk numbers. Bonds is in the 400/400 club. 216 wins with only three 20 win seasons does not get my vote for a pitcher. |
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Post by Fletcher on Jan 26, 2022 14:44:35 GMT
How the hell is Ortiz in but Clemens, Bonds and the rest not? I've been wondering about this, and also not entirely sure what I think about it. It seems like there's a dividing line on performance enhancing drugs between casual/admitted user and the aggressive/unrepentant user. That seems kind of dumb and arbitrary, but with no good place to draw the line, maybe that's about where it should be. There is something so irritating and insulting about Bonds and Clemens refusing to acknowledge what everyone else already knows. If I catch my kids with their literal hand in the cookie jar, I am more offended by them lying to my face ("What cookie??) than by them stealing a cookie. I think that's what's going on here. The American public has been pretty forgiving to those who just admit they cheated, as opposed to those who treat us like idiots. And for Boston fans, Clemens' cheating strikes a particular nerve because it was like the ex-girlfriend who lost 25 pounds after the breakup, along with counseling, a boob job, and taking fellatio lessons. His last two years in Boston had all the markings of an over-the-hill pitcher with a trajectory on the decline. Then he goes to Toronto, puts on 15 pounds of muscle, rids himself of his nagging injuries, regains his power fastball, and starts dominating a again. It was absurd. Then some very clear evidence emerges that he took a ton of steroids and HGH, including his supposed best friend Pettitte admitting that they took it together. While player after player from that era comes clean, Clemens chooses to carry-on denying everything and being a pompous jerk about it. I have no idea what the standard is for the baseball writers (and neither do they). It's pretty damn murky, when we know that Ortiz and Pedro at least dabbled in PEDs too. But I also have a hard time thinking that things are unfair to Bonds and Clemens. People want to see a shred of dignity along with your baseball accomplishments. I kind of like that Clemens has to choose whether to be honest and get in the HOF, or keeping lying and stay out. He seems pretty committed to lying. |
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Post by kelvana33 on Jan 26, 2022 15:18:58 GMT
How the hell is Ortiz in but Clemens, Bonds and the rest not? Power trip. Baseball writers are self righteous clowns. How many cheaters, gamblers etc. from the early 20th century are in HOF ? Clemens and Bonds get in with there pre-bulk numbers. Bonds is in the 400/400 club. 216 wins with only three 20 win seasons does not get my vote for a pitcher. That part is so true. Bonds and Clemens make a case before, Rodriguez too. Clemens wouldn’t have the totals like you said, but he’s at least debatable.Ortiz was released by the Twins at age 27...Think about that. Sosa, without roids he’s borderline MLB player. |
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Post by kelvana33 on Jan 26, 2022 15:32:19 GMT
How the hell is Ortiz in but Clemens, Bonds and the rest not? I've been wondering about this, and also not entirely sure what I think about it. It seems like there's a dividing line on performance enhancing drugs between casual/admitted user and the aggressive/unrepentant user. That seems kind of dumb and arbitrary, but with no good place to draw the line, maybe that's about where it should be. There is something so irritating and insulting about Bonds and Clemens refusing to acknowledge what everyone else already knows. If I catch my kids with their literal hand in the cookie jar, I am more offended by them lying to my face ("What cookie??) than by them stealing a cookie. I think that's what's going on here. The American public has been pretty forgiving to those who just admit they cheated, as opposed to those who treat us like idiots. And for Boston fans, Clemens' cheating strikes a particular nerve because it was like the ex-girlfriend who lost 25 pounds after the breakup, along with counseling, a boob job, and taking fellatio lessons. His last two years in Boston had all the markings of an over-the-hill pitcher with a trajectory on the decline. Then he goes to Toronto, puts on 15 pounds of muscle, rids himself of his nagging injuries, regains his power fastball, and starts dominating a again. It was absurd. Then some very clear evidence emerges that he took a ton of steroids and HGH, including his supposed best friend Pettitte admitting that they took it together. While player after player from that era comes clean, Clemens chooses to carry-on denying everything and being a pompous jerk about it. I have no idea what the standard is for the baseball writers (and neither do they). It's pretty damn murky, when we know that Ortiz and Pedro at least dabbled in PEDs too. But I also have a hard time thinking that things are unfair to Bonds and Clemens. People want to see a shred of dignity along with your baseball accomplishments. I kind of like that Clemens has to choose whether to be honest and get in the HOF, or keeping lying and stay out. He seems pretty committed to lying. Clemens and Bonds come with the character issues, deservedly so, but again,Ortiz, again gets a pass in that department too, which is incredible. |
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Post by sandogbrewin on Jan 26, 2022 16:57:23 GMT
I've been wondering about this, and also not entirely sure what I think about it. It seems like there's a dividing line on performance enhancing drugs between casual/admitted user and the aggressive/unrepentant user. That seems kind of dumb and arbitrary, but with no good place to draw the line, maybe that's about where it should be. There is something so irritating and insulting about Bonds and Clemens refusing to acknowledge what everyone else already knows. If I catch my kids with their literal hand in the cookie jar, I am more offended by them lying to my face ("What cookie??) than by them stealing a cookie. I think that's what's going on here. The American public has been pretty forgiving to those who just admit they cheated, as opposed to those who treat us like idiots. And for Boston fans, Clemens' cheating strikes a particular nerve because it was like the ex-girlfriend who lost 25 pounds after the breakup, along with counseling, a boob job, and taking fellatio lessons. His last two years in Boston had all the markings of an over-the-hill pitcher with a trajectory on the decline. Then he goes to Toronto, puts on 15 pounds of muscle, rids himself of his nagging injuries, regains his power fastball, and starts dominating a again. It was absurd. Then some very clear evidence emerges that he took a ton of steroids and HGH, including his supposed best friend Pettitte admitting that they took it together. While player after player from that era comes clean, Clemens chooses to carry-on denying everything and being a pompous jerk about it. I have no idea what the standard is for the baseball writers (and neither do they). It's pretty damn murky, when we know that Ortiz and Pedro at least dabbled in PEDs too. But I also have a hard time thinking that things are unfair to Bonds and Clemens. People want to see a shred of dignity along with your baseball accomplishments. I kind of like that Clemens has to choose whether to be honest and get in the HOF, or keeping lying and stay out. He seems pretty committed to lying. Clemens and Bonds come with the character issues, deservedly so, but again,Ortiz, again gets a pass in that department too, which is incredible. HOF voting should be based on numbers alone. That's the only reason Schilling doesn't get in for me...its the numbers. |
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Post by 50belowzero on Jan 26, 2022 19:56:07 GMT
The notable MLBHOF candidates were Bonds, Clemens, Schilling and Ortiz. All of them were proven ped/steroid users in some way, shape or form. The thing that separates one of them for induction from the other 3 is that they are thought of by fans, media & HOF voters as egotistical, arrogant, pathological liars who won't admit to the truth when there is overwhelming evidence staring them in the face at every turn. Ortiz who was inducted is generally thought of as a great guy, teammate, friend of the media, always smiling, in general a humble person with a remarkable hitting ability. If at the beginning any of the other 3 had shown any remorse, admitted their transgressions and owned up to it like anyone with courage then people generally are willing to forgive but not when they played the "innocent" card. It seems that Ortiz wasn't held to the same interrogation as the other 3 were though, which is odd, maybe he didn't take as much ped's? As far as Schilling's twitter rants and points of view i have no comment, doesn't need further attention imo. As far as their stats, Bonds & Clemens surely have the numbers, albeit steroid aided.
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Post by Fletcher on Jan 26, 2022 19:57:55 GMT
Clemens and Bonds come with the character issues, deservedly so, but again,Ortiz, again gets a pass in that department too, which is incredible. HOF voting should be based on numbers alone. That's the only reason Schilling doesn't get in for me...its the numbers. That would certainly be more straightforward. Applying today's current standards of morality to the situation is complicated too, since so many baseball players from a century ago did and said things that are reprehensible by 2022 standards, but were cultural norms at the time. It's a little funny for baseball writers in 2022 to decide that their job is to make character judgments on something like PEDs, while many ball players currently in the Hall have done morally objectionable things in their era. Perhaps the HOF should just be agnostic, and acknowledge that their players may have been cheaters, or dopers, or violent drunks, or gamblers, or racists, or womanizers. That's why it's the "Baseball" Hall of Fame and not the Character Hall of Fame. Agreed on Schilling too. He should get evaluated on his baseball success as a pitcher, not his 10-cent brain off the field. However, Schilling has pushed in the other direction, saying players like Canseco and Clemens, etc. should be stripped of Awards and kept out of the HOF because of PED use. I think you really have to go one way or the other -- there should either be a character test or there shouldn't. |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 26, 2022 20:46:44 GMT
"Fellatio lessons" made me piss my diaper
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Post by NAS on Jan 26, 2022 23:40:50 GMT
Ortiz is in because his numbers are great with only a whisper of steroids. And everyone loves him.
Clemens and Bonds were loaded with roids and it wasn't a question. And they're dicks.
Schilling wasn't good enough and he's a douche.
Easy voting.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 27, 2022 2:56:21 GMT
I've been wondering about this, and also not entirely sure what I think about it. It seems like there's a dividing line on performance enhancing drugs between casual/admitted user and the aggressive/unrepentant user. That seems kind of dumb and arbitrary, but with no good place to draw the line, maybe that's about where it should be. There is something so irritating and insulting about Bonds and Clemens refusing to acknowledge what everyone else already knows. If I catch my kids with their literal hand in the cookie jar, I am more offended by them lying to my face ("What cookie??) than by them stealing a cookie. I think that's what's going on here. The American public has been pretty forgiving to those who just admit they cheated, as opposed to those who treat us like idiots. And for Boston fans, Clemens' cheating strikes a particular nerve because it was like the ex-girlfriend who lost 25 pounds after the breakup, along with counseling, a boob job, and taking fellatio lessons. His last two years in Boston had all the markings of an over-the-hill pitcher with a trajectory on the decline. Then he goes to Toronto, puts on 15 pounds of muscle, rids himself of his nagging injuries, regains his power fastball, and starts dominating a again. It was absurd. Then some very clear evidence emerges that he took a ton of steroids and HGH, including his supposed best friend Pettitte admitting that they took it together. While player after player from that era comes clean, Clemens chooses to carry-on denying everything and being a pompous jerk about it. I have no idea what the standard is for the baseball writers (and neither do they). It's pretty damn murky, when we know that Ortiz and Pedro at least dabbled in PEDs too. But I also have a hard time thinking that things are unfair to Bonds and Clemens. People want to see a shred of dignity along with your baseball accomplishments. I kind of like that Clemens has to choose whether to be honest and get in the HOF, or keeping lying and stay out. He seems pretty committed to lying. Clemens and Bonds come with the character issues, deservedly so, but again,Ortiz, again gets a pass in that department too, which is incredible. Whats incredible is that people can look at the evidence vs Clemens and Bonds, and then mention Ortiz in the same sentence. Its breathtaking. |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 27, 2022 2:59:55 GMT
Clemens and Bonds come with the character issues, deservedly so, but again,Ortiz, again gets a pass in that department too, which is incredible. HOF voting should be based on numbers alone. That's the only reason Schilling doesn't get in for me...its the numbers. It should be based on numbers. 300 Ks 3x, 293 in a 4th. 6 time all star, 2 20 win seasons, staggering playoff record. Schilling clearly should be in. His conservatism doomed him from the beginning. Hes a jerk, but the Leftie bias is sickening by the writers. |
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Post by kelvana33 on Jan 27, 2022 3:09:49 GMT
Clemens and Bonds come with the character issues, deservedly so, but again,Ortiz, again gets a pass in that department too, which is incredible. Whats incredible is that people can look at the evidence vs Clemens and Bonds, and then mention Ortiz in the same sentence. Its breathtaking. Bonds and Clemens never failed a test, Ortiz did. There goes the evidence argument. |
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Post by sandogbrewin on Jan 27, 2022 3:50:29 GMT
HOF voting should be based on numbers alone. That's the only reason Schilling doesn't get in for me...its the numbers. It should be based on numbers. 300 Ks 3x, 293 in a 4th. 6 time all star, 2 20 win seasons, staggering playoff record. Schilling clearly should be in. His conservatism doomed him from the beginning. Hes a jerk, but the Leftie bias is sickening by the writers. Number of total wins in 20 years is not HOF worthy. Only 2 20 win season is negative. I don’t care dumb he is or how much he sticks his foot in his mouth. Clearly should be out. |
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Post by NAS on Jan 27, 2022 12:26:47 GMT
HOF voting should be based on numbers alone. That's the only reason Schilling doesn't get in for me...its the numbers. It should be based on numbers. 300 Ks 3x, 293 in a 4th. 6 time all star, 2 20 win seasons, staggering playoff record. Schilling clearly should be in. His conservatism doomed him from the beginning. Hes a jerk, but the Leftie bias is sickening by the writers. A few great seasons for Schill, many above average ones.
Hall of Very Good.
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Post by Fletcher on Jan 27, 2022 15:04:52 GMT
HOF voting should be based on numbers alone. That's the only reason Schilling doesn't get in for me...its the numbers. It should be based on numbers. 300 Ks 3x, 293 in a 4th. 6 time all star, 2 20 win seasons, staggering playoff record. Schilling clearly should be in. His conservatism doomed him from the beginning. Hes a jerk, but the Leftie bias is sickening by the writers. As an independent, this is the most annoying trait that conservatives have stolen from the left in the past decade -- constant victim mentality. That used to be a liberal thing. Schilling didn't do enough to make it to the HOF in my opinion. Too many guys with those same numbers. Off the field, he's a jerk, and that might play a role too (although I agree that it shouldn't). He's not much of a conservative, he's an idiot. I appreciate a principled conservative and I read conservative books and listen to conservative podcasts. Schilling is just a rage-tweeting dope and an egomaniac. He built and bankrupted a major company over night, with his only income being tax-payer, public funds from RI that he shirked ever paying back -- a real conservative there. |
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Post by sandogbrewin on Jan 27, 2022 15:24:35 GMT
And on another note...Englebert and Buttermaker weren't meant to be together!
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Post by kelvana33 on Jan 27, 2022 15:39:19 GMT
It should be based on numbers. 300 Ks 3x, 293 in a 4th. 6 time all star, 2 20 win seasons, staggering playoff record. Schilling clearly should be in. His conservatism doomed him from the beginning. Hes a jerk, but the Leftie bias is sickening by the writers. As an independent, this is the most annoying trait that conservatives have stolen from the left in the past decade -- constant victim mentality. That used to be a liberal thing. Schilling didn't do enough to make it to the HOF in my opinion. Too many guys with those same numbers. Off the field, he's a jerk, and that might play a role too (although I agree that it shouldn't). He's not much of a conservative, he's an idiot. I appreciate a principled conservative and I read conservative books and listen to conservative podcasts. Schilling is just a rage-tweeting dope and an egomaniac. He built and bankrupted a major company over night, with his only income being tax-payer, public funds from RI that he shirked ever paying back -- a real conservative there. I tend to think if Schilling wasn't so outspoken/controversial he has a pretty good chance of being in there. If Mussina is in, hard to argue why Schilling isn't. I've always questioned this whole process, how is a guy not a Hall Of Famer for 7 years on the ballot, but in his eighth year he is? To me, either your a Hall Of Famer or you're not, and most people can tell one when they see one. With all that's changed in baseball the past couple of decades, why hasn't this process? Seems so outdated to me. |
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Post by Fletcher on Jan 27, 2022 15:53:11 GMT
As an independent, this is the most annoying trait that conservatives have stolen from the left in the past decade -- constant victim mentality. That used to be a liberal thing. Schilling didn't do enough to make it to the HOF in my opinion. Too many guys with those same numbers. Off the field, he's a jerk, and that might play a role too (although I agree that it shouldn't). He's not much of a conservative, he's an idiot. I appreciate a principled conservative and I read conservative books and listen to conservative podcasts. Schilling is just a rage-tweeting dope and an egomaniac. He built and bankrupted a major company over night, with his only income being tax-payer, public funds from RI that he shirked ever paying back -- a real conservative there. I tend to think if Schilling wasn't so outspoken/controversial he has a pretty good chance of being in there. If Mussina is in, hard to argue why Schilling isn't. I've always questioned this whole process, how is a guy not a Hall Of Famer for 7 years on the ballot, but in his eighth year he is? To me, either your a Hall Of Famer or you're not, and most people can tell one when they see one. With all that's changed in baseball the past couple of decades, why hasn't this process? Seems so outdated to me. Yeah, I agree with that. Mussina is pretty iffy too though, IMO. I'd probably say neither before I'd say both. But to your point, it seems like the real honor is in being a 1st ballot Hall of Famer. After that, it's kind of like your potential prom date saying "well, if nobody else asks me...". You're not really getting in on merits, but if there's nobody else good that year...maybe. |
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Post by dannycater on Jan 31, 2022 18:51:54 GMT
It is the Hall of the Revisionist History of Baseball...it celebrates average to very good players and slights all-time greats. Cobb murdered a guy in one offseason, Ruth routinely raveged prostitutes, Rose bet on baseball...oh boo-hoo...he broke the law...boo-hoo...and now every other advertisement is bet on any athletic event and make sure you visit the local sportsbook. Liars! Liars!....oh boo-hoo. Clemens lied about SteroidGate...oh boo-hoo, boo-hoo. He lied, and he is such a terrible person. Ortiz got shot in a case of mistaken identity...or was it that he was banging the local mafiaso's ex girlfriend?? oh boo-hoo. He wasn't on the list...Big Papi...nor was Clemens...he was never on any list, it was proven in court. But I'm happy for Big Papi (Manny should go in too but hey actually did it and was caught...but then he when he drove in 165 RBI or whatever it was with Indians he was scrawny Ramirez back then. Rocket led the 86 team, no roids. Bonds was already MVP of the NL way before roids. Rose is the all-time hits leader....4000 plus....how do you have a "Hall of Fame" and not have the all-time hits leader? Answer, it's turned into a circus of morality judges. Schilling, who cares if he is a psycho AFTER HIS CAREER WAS OVER...ah let's fuck him too. Fucking all-time joke the Baseball Hall of Revisionist History.
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Post by sandogbrewin on Feb 1, 2022 13:00:47 GMT
Power trip. Baseball writers are self righteous clowns. How many cheaters, gamblers etc. from the early 20th century are in HOF ? Clemens and Bonds get in with there pre-bulk numbers. Bonds is in the 400/400 club. 216 wins with only three 20 win seasons does not get my vote for a pitcher. That part is so true. Bonds and Clemens make a case before, Rodriguez too. Clemens wouldn’t have the totals like you said, but he’s at least debatable.Ortiz was released by the Twins at age 27...Think about that. Sosa, without roids he’s borderline MLB player. Sosa is an interesting character. His story got wierder n wierder after the home run race was over. Giambi was the one to me that came out looking the best during the steroid era. Got out in front of it and admitted he was a user. |
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Post by kelvana33 on Feb 1, 2022 15:53:25 GMT
That part is so true. Bonds and Clemens make a case before, Rodriguez too. Clemens wouldn’t have the totals like you said, but he’s at least debatable.Ortiz was released by the Twins at age 27...Think about that. Sosa, without roids he’s borderline MLB player. Sosa is an interesting character. His story got wierder n wierder after the home run race was over. Giambi was the one to me that came out looking the best during the steroid era. Got out in front of it and admitted he was a user. Pettite came clean too, funny you mention Giambi, do you remember the time hit one out off Wakefield, and Wakefield just had the "are you shitting me" look on his face. A-Rod took a bunch of heat at first, but he's rebounded nicely. At the end of the day, if I was in their position, knowing other players are doing it and I have a 100 plus million contract staring at me. Awfully tempting. |
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Post by sandogbrewin on Feb 1, 2022 15:57:58 GMT
Sosa is an interesting character. His story got wierder n wierder after the home run race was over. Giambi was the one to me that came out looking the best during the steroid era. Got out in front of it and admitted he was a user. Pettite came clean too, funny you mention Giambi, do you remember the time hit one out off Wakefield, and Wakefield just had the "are you shitting me" look on his face. A-Rod took a bunch of heat at first, but he's rebounded nicely. At the end of the day, if I was in their position, knowing other players are doing it and I have a 100 plus million contract staring at me. Awfully tempting. Rick Ankiel is an example of what I would have done if I were languishing in AAA. Ha i’m still trying to figure out why Mike Greenwell had no fear of Randy Johnson. |
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