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Post by dannycater on Jul 20, 2023 22:58:51 GMT
Joe had broken ribs, it wasn't his fault. If he didn't get injured in game 81, his legacy could have been so much different. He shouldn't have played if they were so bad. He certainly shouldn't have played over 21 min in game 7. They got to game 7 without him scoring or really contributing much of anything. It's worse than just that he didn't score, it's that the guy he was up against most shifts put up 3 points against him in game 5, 2 more in game 6, and then assisted on both goals in the 2-0 clincher. Thornton was -6 in those three games (...sounds strangely familiar...). Thornton averaged 21:30 for the series. The Bruins best C in the series was Nylander, one of the guys the let get away during the lockout. Bergeron was 18 and still had 4 points. Green was a serviceable defensive C and Hilbert could have handled the 4th line duties. I have no doubt JTS was compromised, but he was good enough to go out there for 21 min a night; he wasn't ambulanced out in the middle of a third period only to return for the next game. I think your statement about his legacy here cuts both ways. It's entirely possible looking at JTS's career that the ribs weren't the only reason he went 0-fer, and if he doesn't have that excuse - if he's a fully healthy JTS throughout the series - and it changes nothing? Maybe so. Ullmark was injured and people want him gone after Vezina thanks to the Florida debacle. So it continues. |
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Post by tomobrien on Jul 20, 2023 23:13:41 GMT
All these great names from the past...I will add my two cents: Carol Vadnais and Don Awrey.
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Post by thanx4memORRies on Jul 20, 2023 23:48:05 GMT
The Joey T story is another aspect of the Jason Allison coulda' been. If BOS kept JA, I think it would have been great for Joe. Jason stays as captain and #1C, and JT gets to be the best #2C in modern NHL history. It would have suited his strengths and weaknesses so much better. I think this may well be true. Because Allison was a prick, so he would have taken zero shit from the kid with the first overall pedigree. You want my TOI? My PP TOI? Come and get it. Allison's injuries led to Thornton's breakthrough with first 60 points and then his first shot at a point/game when Allison came back. One of the things that would have done if they had both been healthy over a longer term, and the Bruins had been able to keep both, is it made Thornton be a goal scorer. His best year for goals and the only time in his career he scored more goals than assists was Allison's final year in Boston. Next year, he dropped 15 goals and barely topped 20 concentrating on feeding Billy Guerin. Liked Jason, but whereas Joe will become a hall-of-famer sooner rather than later, the former will need to buy a ticket to get in…. Just like there would’ve been room for both Jason and Joe on that pp, there would’ve been room for both Chara and Joe on the same team…. Not bad enough that the B’S traded Joe just before he’s about to peak, but to then just give him away to the first team that picked up the phone has to be the #1 boneheaded move in B’S history…. |
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Post by thanx4memORRies on Jul 20, 2023 23:57:47 GMT
All these great names from the past...I will add my two cents: Carol Vadnais and Don Awrey. Sorry Tom, when I think about Vadnais, two names come to mind…. Carol Burnett and Reggie Leach…. One makes me laugh and the other makes me cry…. Awrey had to be the greatest shot blocker of the 70s…. |
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Post by sandogbrewin on Jul 21, 2023 0:07:41 GMT
"He shouldn't have played if they were so bad."
What ? Bruins management and Ownership were questioning Thornton's toughness. One the justifications for trading Joe. He can't sit out!
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Post by dannycater on Jul 21, 2023 1:10:39 GMT
"He shouldn't have played if they were so bad." What ? Bruins management and Ownership were questioning Thornton's toughness. One the justifications for trading Joe. He can't sit out! Exactly. To me, Thornton was in a rock and a hard place with his broken ribs...he basically had to suck it up, buttercup...by sitting, he would have been villified as "soft." No win situation...How Tkachuk was able to even be effective when he was concussed and suffering a sternum injury was sick tough, but also sick period. Bergeron has been injured so often in playoffs, who knows when he is or isn't? But Jumbo Joe was given away, which is what thanx is saying and I agree with. They didn't get anything for him and it was a crime. Gave away both Samsonov and Thornton. |
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Post by bookboy007 on Jul 21, 2023 2:38:56 GMT
"He shouldn't have played if they were so bad." What ? Bruins management and Ownership were questioning Thornton's toughness. One the justifications for trading Joe. He can't sit out! Exactly. To me, Thornton was in a rock and a hard place with his broken ribs...he basically had to suck it up, buttercup...by sitting, he would have been villified as "soft." No win situation...How Tkachuk was able to even be effective when he was concussed and suffering a sternum injury was sick tough, but also sick period. Bergeron has been injured so often in playoffs, who knows when he is or isn't? But Jumbo Joe was given away, which is what thanx is saying and I agree with. They didn't get anything for him and it was a crime. Gave away both Samsonov and Thornton. It was time for Samsonov. There's no point in defending the return they got in that JTS trade. My position is that they wete going nowhere with him because regardless if why or how, he was demanding top money and delivering upper middle class results. Should have maxed the return. But as I said, for every GM who now postures about how they would have done something more to get JT if only they had known, there are two who wouldn't have made the deal. That's why he never made the team for internationals once he was in the NHL. |
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Post by bookboy007 on Jul 21, 2023 2:40:08 GMT
"He shouldn't have played if they were so bad." What ? Bruins management and Ownership were questioning Thornton's toughness. One the justifications for trading Joe. He can't sit out! Joe had no problem shooting his mouth off about what he thought of management and ownership. Sure he can sit out. What are they goiing to do? Trade him to SJ? |
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Post by The OC on Jul 21, 2023 4:23:42 GMT
Exactly. To me, Thornton was in a rock and a hard place with his broken ribs...he basically had to suck it up, buttercup...by sitting, he would have been villified as "soft." No win situation...How Tkachuk was able to even be effective when he was concussed and suffering a sternum injury was sick tough, but also sick period. Bergeron has been injured so often in playoffs, who knows when he is or isn't? But Jumbo Joe was given away, which is what thanx is saying and I agree with. They didn't get anything for him and it was a crime. Gave away both Samsonov and Thornton. It was time for Samsonov. There's no point in defending the return they got in that JTS trade. My position is that they wete going nowhere with him because regardless if why or how, he was demanding top money and delivering upper middle class results. Should have maxed the return. But as I said, for every GM who now postures about how they would have done something more to get JT if only they had known, there are two who wouldn't have made the deal. That's why he never made the team for internationals once he was in the NHL. He was in the midst of winning the scoring title and Hart. That's not middle class. |
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Post by bookboy007 on Jul 21, 2023 11:38:28 GMT
It was time for Samsonov. There's no point in defending the return they got in that JTS trade. My position is that they wete going nowhere with him because regardless if why or how, he was demanding top money and delivering upper middle class results. Should have maxed the return. But as I said, for every GM who now postures about how they would have done something more to get JT if only they had known, there are two who wouldn't have made the deal. That's why he never made the team for internationals once he was in the NHL. He was in the midst of winning the scoring title and Hart. That's not middle class. They didn't know what he would do post trade. I don't think the Bruins were the only management or ownership group that believed he was soft. |
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Post by bookboy007 on Jul 21, 2023 11:42:17 GMT
Defending Nabokov that's a laugh. Posted a .750, 2 .907s, an .850 and yah he gets one .920. Then the Islanders give him a shot...what does he put up ? .842 (the Islanders couldn't score right ?) Hilariously awful!!! Comically flailing spin. Right, so ignore the multiple years of evidence that the Sharts got bounced because they scored under 2 per game for a series or, in one instance, in the last 5 to blow a 3-1 series lead and point out Nabokov's stats pre-Thornton particularly when Toskala was the playoff starter. Good work. The JTS fanclub must have a special badge you can sew on your Davos championship jersey. |
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Post by sandogbrewin on Jul 21, 2023 13:39:49 GMT
Exactly. To me, Thornton was in a rock and a hard place with his broken ribs...he basically had to suck it up, buttercup...by sitting, he would have been villified as "soft." No win situation...How Tkachuk was able to even be effective when he was concussed and suffering a sternum injury was sick tough, but also sick period. Bergeron has been injured so often in playoffs, who knows when he is or isn't? But Jumbo Joe was given away, which is what thanx is saying and I agree with. They didn't get anything for him and it was a crime. Gave away both Samsonov and Thornton. It was time for Samsonov. There's no point in defending the return they got in that JTS trade. My position is that they wete going nowhere with him because regardless if why or how, he was demanding top money and delivering upper middle class results. Should have maxed the return. But as I said, for every GM who now postures about how they would have done something more to get JT if only they had known, there are two who wouldn't have made the deal. That's why he never made the team for internationals once he was in the NHL. Any examples of which GMs who would not have made offers at the time ? |
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Post by sandogbrewin on Jul 21, 2023 13:46:12 GMT
Defending Nabokov that's a laugh. Posted a .750, 2 .907s, an .850 and yah he gets one .920. Then the Islanders give him a shot...what does he put up ? .842 (the Islanders couldn't score right ?) Hilariously awful!!! Comically flailing spin. Right, so ignore the multiple years of evidence that the Sharts got bounced because they scored under 2 per game for a series or, in one instance, in the last 5 to blow a 3-1 series lead and point out Nabokov's stats pre-Thornton particularly when Toskala was the playoff starter. Good work. The JTS fanclub must have a special badge you can sew on your Davos championship jersey. I'm not a fan of Thorntons playoff play. Nor part of his fanclub. The only non-Shark playoff stat, for my exampl e, was in New York after he left San Jose. It backed up my statement that Nabokov sucked. Ask any Shark fan, I know plenty, what they thought, about playoff goaltending while Thornton was in his prime. They felt Wilson dropped the ball. |
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Post by bookboy007 on Jul 21, 2023 13:57:55 GMT
It was time for Samsonov. There's no point in defending the return they got in that JTS trade. My position is that they wete going nowhere with him because regardless if why or how, he was demanding top money and delivering upper middle class results. Should have maxed the return. But as I said, for every GM who now postures about how they would have done something more to get JT if only they had known, there are two who wouldn't have made the deal. That's why he never made the team for internationals once he was in the NHL. Any examples of which GMs who would not have made offers at the time ? Obviously, no, not that I can say with certainty, but I will say there's a difference between making an offer and making the offers that the critics think when they hear GMs or execs from other teams say "we didn't know! we would have made a better offer!" But I would go down the list of the Olympics and major international tournaments during the years before the trade and start with the execs and coaches who chose not to include him. But for all the weight put on the reports that other teams weren't aware he was on the block etc., I don't think I've ever heard anyone put their name to it so that we can say yes, that person would have had the decision making authority to make that trade, the assets to offer something better than what they got, and the backing of ownership knowing that a big contract for JTS needed to follow. So I'm sure it's been said to journalists, but what it would have actually looked like in the end if a different stripe of horse. |
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Post by dannycater on Jul 21, 2023 14:12:14 GMT
He was in the midst of winning the scoring title and Hart. That's not middle class. They didn't know what he would do post trade. I don't think the Bruins were the only management or ownership group that believed he was soft. oh my god, what is this revisionist history week? They traded JTS and SS for one reason only--they had an entire intent to blow up the B's and not have to deal with big contracts for their younger best talents--which both were--SS was a Calder Trophy winner for cryin out loud. It had fucking nothing to do with "soft" or "he's predicted to not do well post B's"....BULL...TO...THE...SHIT.....look, I fucking think David Backes, Nick Foligno were distractions on B's because they were offended because they simply weren't good enough to play game 7s in playoffs...But years after we'll have people here saying "I can't believe they didn't play Backes in the biggest game of the 19 season" or "Nick was a leader, and it took away from the team that he wasn't there in game 7."...that's revisionist history--they fucking weren't getting it done...end of fucking story. |
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Post by dannycater on Jul 21, 2023 14:40:52 GMT
Also what do you have against upper middle class...I am offended! Hell, I'm not even upper lower middle class at this point....fucking snob!
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Post by bookboy007 on Jul 21, 2023 15:53:37 GMT
Right, so ignore the multiple years of evidence that the Sharts got bounced because they scored under 2 per game for a series or, in one instance, in the last 5 to blow a 3-1 series lead and point out Nabokov's stats pre-Thornton particularly when Toskala was the playoff starter. Good work. The JTS fanclub must have a special badge you can sew on your Davos championship jersey. I'm not a fan of Thorntons playoff play. Nor part of his fanclub. The only non-Shark playoff stat, for my exampl e, was in New York after he left San Jose. It backed up my statement that Nabokov sucked. Ask any Shark fan, I know plenty, what they thought, about playoff goaltending while Thornton was in his prime. They felt Wilson dropped the ball. He was only the starter in the four playoff years when Thornton was there; Toskala was the playoff starter the year Thornton won the Hart when Nabokov came on in relief in one game and made 3 saves on 4 shots. Hardly material. Nabokov's stats for those 4 playoffs were .920 and 2.23; .907 and 2.18; .890 and 2.82 and .907 and 2.56. But just to be clear here, I'm not saying Nabokov was Hasek; I'm just saying that he was not so bad that it excuses the Thornton-led offense for their playoff failings. Every series they lost for the prime years, they lost because they couldn't score more than two goals a game. For the first 10 years of JTS's time in SJ, they were a top 5 scoring team. In his first 5 years, they were 6th overall and scored more than 3 a game in the regular season. They were an offense first team; that offense failed them; their offensive kingpin was JTS. Nothing to do with goaltending. I'm sure Shart fans feel like Wilson dropped the ball. Fans always blame the goalie. As danny said a few posts back, there are those who want the current Vezina winner ditched because he couldn't maintain his level of play in the playoffs, injury or not. I think that Wilson also felt he dropped the ball and that's why they went out and got a goalie who had just won the Cup. And while Niemi wasn't very good his first year, he was .914 and 2.45 his second year when they lost in 5 straight, and then .930 and 1.87 the next year when they managed to score just 10 goals against the Kings in 7 games including just 3 in the final 3 games. Niemi went off the rails after that. I'm not here to defend the SJ goaltending or the decisions on their goaltenders, but I don't think the goaltending is why they couldn't break through in JTS's prime. The pattern of failing to score in pressure situations is obvious. |
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Post by bookboy007 on Jul 21, 2023 15:55:53 GMT
Also what do you have against upper middle class...I am offended! Hell, I'm not even upper lower middle class at this point....fucking snob! Wrong direction. More that you'll only be SECOND against the wall when the revolution comes. |
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Post by bookboy007 on Jul 21, 2023 16:08:21 GMT
They didn't know what he would do post trade. I don't think the Bruins were the only management or ownership group that believed he was soft. oh my god, what is this revisionist history week? They traded JTS and SS for one reason only--they had an entire intent to blow up the B's and not have to deal with big contracts for their younger best talents--which both were--SS was a Calder Trophy winner for cryin out loud. It had fucking nothing to do with "soft" or "he's predicted to not do well post B's"....BULL...TO...THE...SHIT.....look, I fucking think David Backes, Nick Foligno were distractions on B's because they were offended because they simply weren't good enough to play game 7s in playoffs...But years after we'll have people here saying "I can't believe they didn't play Backes in the biggest game of the 19 season" or "Nick was a leader, and it took away from the team that he wasn't there in game 7."...that's revisionist history--they fucking weren't getting it done...end of fucking story. Now who's Malcolm Gladwell? They didn't deal Thornton because they didn't want to pay him. They dealt him because at the time of the trade, the team was in shambles and Thornton had spent the last year making it clear he wouldn't re-sign in Boston if he didn't feel they had spent enough money to support him with better players. Before ribsgate and the Full Thornton, his regular season production had dropped by 13 goals and 28 points from one year to the next the season before the lockout. Thornton was putting up crazy points to start the season, but the Bruins looked like a pond hockey team. They were the South Park Cows vs the Dallas Cowboys. So...OK...they didn't want to pay him, but it wasn't because they just didn't want to get off the wallet. The team was awful and there was a real risk he was going to force his way out one way or another. He had no love for the spoked B. You don't trade for three NHL players and no picks if you're blowing it up. |
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Post by sandogbrewin on Jul 21, 2023 16:11:39 GMT
.907, .890, and .907 are awful playoff stats for a goalie. And why Nabokov was jettisoned. How good was Wilson's decision making on goalies during that era ? Niemi was the replacement.
Variables and data mining ? It's the same as Bruins fans blaming just Joe Thornton for the 2004 collapse.
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Post by dannycater on Jul 21, 2023 16:36:44 GMT
.907, .890, and .907 are awful playoff stats for a goalie. And why Nabokov was jettisoned. How good was Wilson's decision making on goalies during that era ? Niemi was the replacement. Variables and data mining ? It's the same as Bruins fans blaming just Joe Thornton for the 2004 collapse. One of my pet peeves is how Seguin, Thornton, Kessel, Hamilton, etc were awful people or that good riddance...Bullshit...These were talented players who had they remained Bruins probably would have EXCEEDED their overall accomplishments with other teams. Just because a player doesn't pan out or doesn't live up to the ultimate potential with another team doesn't make those players lesser. We just never know what those guys would have done had they been career Bruins...The B's were constantly searching for a Thornton, for a Kessel, and even a Seguin for a few years...that's the truth. Thornton might have put over the top a few of the B's teams that needed that playmaker/PP guy. |
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Post by thanx4memORRies on Jul 21, 2023 17:20:14 GMT
My unsung hero of the 90s is Donnie….
Sweeney helped a certain guy named Ray anchor the B’S d-corps after the departure of Glen Wesley….
Donnie and Ray helped keep the B’S respectable for the better part of the decade despite the motley crew assembled around them such as Garry Galley, Alan Pederson, Bob Beers, Jim Wiemer, David Shaw, Gord Murphy, Glen Featherstone, Jamie Huscroft, Alexei Kasatonov, and Rick Zombie just to name a few that would’ve made Grezlik look like a candidate for the Norris….
Donnie was pretty reliable in the back end although he looked to be punching above his weight class….
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Post by bookboy007 on Jul 21, 2023 17:57:16 GMT
.907, .890, and .907 are awful playoff stats for a goalie. And why Nabokov was jettisoned. How good was Wilson's decision making on goalies during that era ? Niemi was the replacement. Variables and data mining ? It's the same as Bruins fans blaming just Joe Thornton for the 2004 collapse. Right, so not scoring any goals is excused because the goalie had a .907 s%? Pointing out that they couldn't score 2 goals/game in the series the lost year after year after year with Joe as their offensive catalyst isn't data mining, ffs. It's picking low hanging fruit. |
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Post by bookboy007 on Jul 21, 2023 18:04:55 GMT
.907, .890, and .907 are awful playoff stats for a goalie. And why Nabokov was jettisoned. How good was Wilson's decision making on goalies during that era ? Niemi was the replacement. Variables and data mining ? It's the same as Bruins fans blaming just Joe Thornton for the 2004 collapse. One of my pet peeves is how Seguin, Thornton, Kessel, Hamilton, etc were awful people or that good riddance...Bullshit...These were talented players who had they remained Bruins probably would have EXCEEDED their overall accomplishments with other teams. Just because a player doesn't pan out or doesn't live up to the ultimate potential with another team doesn't make those players lesser. We just never know what those guys would have done had they been career Bruins...The B's were constantly searching for a Thornton, for a Kessel, and even a Seguin for a few years...that's the truth. Thornton might have put over the top a few of the B's teams that needed that playmaker/PP guy. Sure. And one of my pet peeves is that people look at scorers and overall scoring numbers and excuse any other aspect of the pretty-boys' games that may be part of why their teams aren't winning games. Guys with scoring numbers are treated like Teflon: nothing sticks and god forbid somebody scrape the surface with anything that has an edge. I don't get why they're above criticism. I know I am over the top on JTS. I am over the top because anything less gets dismissed with these proxy arguments that I think he's a bad person or that he sucks. Part of the teflon is people not wanting to actually talk about the things I point out. They ignore it and argue with things KPD said 20 years ago. |
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Post by sandogbrewin on Jul 21, 2023 18:09:04 GMT
My unsung hero of the 90s is Donnie…. Sweeney helped a certain guy named Ray anchor the B’S d-corps after the departure of Glen Wesley…. Donnie and Ray helped keep the B’S respectable for the better part of the decade despite the motley crew assembled around them such as Garry Galley, Alan Pederson, Bob Beers, Jim Wiemer, David Shaw, Gord Murphy, Glen Featherstone, Jamie Huscroft, Alexei Kasatonov, and Rick Zombie just to name a few that would’ve made Grezlik look like a candidate for the Norris…. Donnie was pretty reliable in the back end although he looked to be punching above his weight class…. Donnie was exposed in the 91' and 92' series against the Penguins and the 93' series against the Sabres. Me thinks Sweeney did his level best. But he got eaten up by top 6 forwards most of the time. |
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