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Post by MrHulot on May 7, 2015 23:16:19 GMT
BTW: This does not mean that I don't think any of the ideas and theories mentioned in this thread have no merit or cannot possibly come close to the truth. It's just another theory.
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Post by UtahGetMeTwo on May 7, 2015 23:35:54 GMT
Grab $5M worth of Muckers from around the league to jam up the Oilers cap room there Peter!
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Post by stevegm on May 9, 2015 12:13:02 GMT
#3. "Having space is over-rated if you can create space when you need it" I think he even is suprised he couldnt do it, especially after dealing Boychuk. As I stated before, I think we got a piece of the answer during the Neely/Charlie awkward press conference. PC had a deal, Cam nixed it is what I came away with. I really think this is where the whole 'Cap thing' gets sideways. IMO, the Bruins cap crunch is strictly the result of not wanting to let anyone of significance go. If we believe Cam...it's obvious that he had more confidence in the roster "as is", than Chirelli. Since PC supposedly assembled it....that's confusing.
Most of the league, is tight to the Cap. For any of these teams to make a big change culturally, or competitively...it pretty much comes down to moving fairly "big pieces". Talent wise, a new 4th line isn't taking anyone from the outhouse, to the penthouse.
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Post by stevegm on May 9, 2015 12:43:02 GMT
No problem here, book. It's probably more than just a dislike between Cam & PC. I like 50's theory about Cam trying to get rid of Claude. I think we can all agree that Cam Neely cannot be considered a big fan of Claude Julien's hockey philosophy. Maybe he already wanted to fire him after last season's playoff exit against the Habs, which would explain the quick counterstrike by PC (the multi-year contract extension he gave CJ in November). So things are clear from here on out - it's PC & CJ vs Cam & Charlie, who has his big entrance in January with his proclamation to the media. And the team struggles to stay in the playoff race, Cam tells PC not to waste any assets on rentals, the team fails to hold on to the final playoff spot - BINGO! PC vs Cam is a rift that has been simmering for quite some time, according to multiple media sources. Also been widely reported that Cam wanted Claude whacked. Although, we rarely get indisputable fact, both are widely reported, with virtually no dissention within the pro hockey community. That's as close to fact as we get. If these are both true, and it's almost assured they're somewhat true....isn't canning PC, and keeping CJ(even if it's just for a day or 2), about the most awkward, convoluted, disingenuous, back door way possible to handle such. If Cam wanted Julien gone...he only had about 2 ethical options. 1. Tell PC, he had to axe CJ. This happens all the time, in every high level position within any company. Managers have to often times do what someone higher in the chain tells them to. 2. Fire Chirelli, because he won't take executive direction. #1 didn't happen, and the first part of #2 may have. But if Cam wanted Julien gone, he should have done that as soon as PC was shown the door. If he wanted Julien gone...everybody in the organization already knew that. By saying it's the new GM's call, he's showing the rest of the organization, he's sneaky and underhanded. If Cam did hire a GM that loved Julien(highly unlikely), no new GM is going to come in, and keep Julien, if he knows it's against the bosses wish. That's no way to start a new job. Career suicide. |
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Post by UtahGetMeTwo on May 9, 2015 13:37:43 GMT
"it's a PC & CJ vs Cam & Charlie"
The article by Fluto said it all, Neely going to Bruin veteran's after a 4 shot 1st period against the powerhouse Carolina Breezes and asking "asking what is going on ?". Probably wasn't asked quite so nicely.
Charlie probably went to Cam and asked "Why didn't we make the playoffs ?" and Neely opened up on Julien. Jacobs next question was "Well what do you reccomend ?". Charlie doesn't want to have to spend anymore time than he has too away from th friendly confines of the Jacobs Florida compound.
Oh and another reaason - it was time for change.
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Post by Deleted on May 9, 2015 18:47:52 GMT
Book so far you're the only one who really has shown a "fair" analysis of this whole thing. In Steve's responses you see how he wants so badly to have a reason to hate Neely for making the move. His negativity on the whole thing "stinks" as badly as the whole original firing, but most have at least let go and are willing to see what happens; instead of just continuing the whole "Cam & Charlie are evil and this means the Bruins are going to the Harry Sinden days." mentality.
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Post by bookboy007 on May 9, 2015 19:06:10 GMT
Time for a change is an empty phrase, 'Dog. It implies something that becomes less valuable over time, that you can measure, and that you can improve or re-set with a change. That's what I'm after here. It may well be true that if you roll up all of the things I'm suggesting, they simply amount to "it was time" - things that were working have stopped working, so....
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Post by bookboy007 on May 9, 2015 19:08:13 GMT
nite - my points and steve's are not mutually exclusive. Like I say, I'm trying to find legit reasons for the guy to be gone completely independent of the question of why the Bruins made the move. But for the most part, yeah, I'm in wait and see mode because these moves are always really simple to evaluate in hindsight - did the new guy do a better job than the old guy? If they answer's yes, great. If not, at very least, you bungled the move.
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Post by UtahGetMeTwo on May 9, 2015 20:09:01 GMT
What PC was doing became stagnant and the President agreed. If Chiarelli doesn't make changes he will fail in Edmnton. He kept bringing in pluggers and keeping them past there prime which led to his being fired.
PCs choice was to get rid of Julien and stay but he chose another direction. Good luck PC!
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Post by goodnewsbears on May 9, 2015 20:20:33 GMT
What PC was doing became stagnant and the President agreed. If Chiarelli doesn't make changes he will fail in Edmnton. He kept bringing in pluggers and keeping them past there prime which led to his being fired. PCs choice was to get rid of Julien and stay but he chose another direction. Good luck PC! PC gambled last year bringing in Iginla and his bonus laden contract. He had a team that could win the Cup, but they didn't get the bounces against Montreal. That put him up against the cap this year which lead to a team with no real first line RW. They still ended up with 96 points in a year full of injuries. |
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Post by zamboni on May 9, 2015 20:35:01 GMT
What PC was doing became stagnant and the President agreed. If Chiarelli doesn't make changes he will fail in Edmnton. He kept bringing in pluggers and keeping them past there prime which led to his being fired. PCs choice was to get rid of Julien and stay but he chose another direction. Good luck PC! PC gambled last year bringing in Iginla and his bonus laden contract. He had a team that could win the Cup, but they didn't get the bounces against Montreal. That put him up against the cap this year which lead to a team with no real first line RW. They still ended up with 96 points in a year full of injuries. |
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Post by Zamboni on May 9, 2015 20:37:10 GMT
PC gambled last year bringing in Iginla and his bonus laden contract. He had a team that could win the Cup, but they didn't get the bounces against Montreal. That put him up against the cap this year which lead to a team with no real first line RW. They still ended up with 96 points in a year full of injuries. You are nuts if you think that they had a team that could win the cup. !!! |
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Post by goodnewsbears on May 9, 2015 21:13:07 GMT
You are nuts if you think that they had a team that could win the cup. !!! Haha, you are nuts if you think they couldn't. Why are you a guest, I thought you were a member? |
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Post by MrHulot on May 9, 2015 22:14:18 GMT
You are nuts if you think that they had a team that could win the cup. !!! Haha, you are nuts if you think they couldn't. Why are you a guest, I thought you were a member? Had Bishop been healthy last year for the first round, Tampa might have ousted the Habs, and the B's were definitely good enough (President's trophy winners) to deal with the Bolts and the Rangers. Heck, just a couple of bounces going the Bruins' way, and they would have finished the Habs in five games. Last year's team definitely had a chance to go all the way. And I don't think that Steve's post suggests that he wants to construct a reason to hate Cam Neely. I think he made some very valid points - he said "if Cam wanted Julien gone, he should have done that as soon as PC was shown the door", and I agree with him (and I definitely do not hate Cam Neely). The thing is that we simply don't have enough info to really determine what Cam & Charlie should have done. Maybe there was much more to it than we know by now, or maybe Cam Neely really is "sneaky and underhanded" (I don't think so, but I also didn't expect TT to turn into a selfish prima donna virtually overnight), and maybe PC did a few things behind the scenes that we wouldn't expect from him either. BTW: I don't like this kind of canonizing of Chiarelli that's been going on both at BDC and in this forum, and if some users feel the need to use his mug as an avatar, then maybe they should also consider getting a tattoo of his likeness, preferably on their private parts. The guy's gone, he's not working for the Bruins anymore, and I hope his successor does a better job (however difficult that might be). |
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Post by bookboy007 on May 9, 2015 23:04:52 GMT
Peter, martyred with Denis, Michael and Jukka by Cameronus Neelius....
Here; someone photoshop PC's face on this guy....
_
I kid, I kid. Again, the whole point here is that there were probably legit reasons to fire PC, or really, to move on from him and in a new direction. No one is perfectly safe in that business - I wouldn't be surprised if losing Babcock and then missing the playoffs next year (which I think is likely) causes the Wings to think about Kenny Holland. |
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Post by crowls on May 10, 2015 10:43:08 GMT
The injuries and 96 point argument read a little too much like excuses. 96 points wasn't good enough, wouldn't have got you in the playoffs in the West either. Sure, losing Chara & Krejci for extended periods hurt this team. What was also clear, was how little margin for error this team had to begin with. Losing Chara was exacerbated by having to trade Boychuk, and losing Krejci was exacerbated by not replacing Iginla (down 2 top-6 FWDs).
What did your eyes tell you when you watched this team? For me, wildly inconsistent and often absent any passion or jam. Just sleep-walking through games over extended periods of time. 96 points? Meh, how about finishing with a +2 goal differential for the year?
This on the heels of getting bounced by the Habs in the 2nd round after winning the President's Trophy.
PC deserves credit for his moves to help get this team to the pinnacle. Some of the "PC won us the Cup" is over-the-top. PC was better on the way up then when he got there. Just maybe, the Executive Team saw the same thing?
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Post by goodnewsbears on May 10, 2015 12:34:28 GMT
The injuries and 96 point argument read a little too much like excuses. 96 points wasn't good enough, wouldn't have got you in the playoffs in the West either. Sure, losing Chara & Krejci for extended periods hurt this team. What was also clear, was how little margin for error this team had to begin with. Losing Chara was exacerbated by having to trade Boychuk, and losing Krejci was exacerbated by not replacing Iginla (down 2 top-6 FWDs). What did your eyes tell you when you watched this team? For me, wildly inconsistent and often absent any passion or jam. Just sleep-walking through games over extended periods of time. 96 points? Meh, how about finishing with a +2 goal differential for the year? This on the heels of getting bounced by the Habs in the 2nd round after winning the President's Trophy. PC deserves credit for his moves to help get this team to the pinnacle. Some of the "PC won us the Cup" is over-the-top. PC was better on the way up then when he got there. Just maybe, the Executive Team saw the same thing? Inconsistent, no passion or jam, sleep walking through games, wouldn't those things have to do more with coaching? |
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Post by crowls on May 10, 2015 12:42:27 GMT
They might GNB, could also be attributed to roster construction? PC is also accountable for the coach, that's his guy, right?
The product on the ice was struggling, what was PC's plan to correct?
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Post by MrHulot on May 10, 2015 12:49:50 GMT
The injuries and 96 point argument read a little too much like excuses. 96 points wasn't good enough, wouldn't have got you in the playoffs in the West either. Sure, losing Chara & Krejci for extended periods hurt this team. What was also clear, was how little margin for error this team had to begin with. Losing Chara was exacerbated by having to trade Boychuk, and losing Krejci was exacerbated by not replacing Iginla (down 2 top-6 FWDs). What did your eyes tell you when you watched this team? For me, wildly inconsistent and often absent any passion or jam. Just sleep-walking through games over extended periods of time. 96 points? Meh, how about finishing with a +2 goal differential for the year? This on the heels of getting bounced by the Habs in the 2nd round after winning the President's Trophy. PC deserves credit for his moves to help get this team to the pinnacle. Some of the "PC won us the Cup" is over-the-top. PC was better on the way up then when he got there. Just maybe, the Executive Team saw the same thing? , wouldn't those things have to do more with coaching? And that had happened before, throughout the years under CJ, not just this season, but since the team always seemed to find a way out of these stretches of inconsistency, nobody worried about it (except for some guys on BDC, me included, until they won the Cup in '11). |
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Post by goodnewsbears on May 10, 2015 12:53:53 GMT
They might GNB, could also be attributed to roster construction? PC is also accountable for the coach, that's his guy, right? The product on the ice was struggling, what was PC's plan to correct? I don't know what his plan was, I'd have to ask him. I'm sure he tried all season to improve this team. That's what GMs do. Just because you want to make a trade, it doesn't mean there's one available that will improve your team. It's also harder to make trades than it used to with the loser point (keeping more teams in the playoff race) and the salary cap (where you have to have money going out to bring money in). The B's were considered one of the best teams on the East by everybody before the season started. Nobody thought the roster was constructed so poorly that it would result in a DNQ even if the first line RW position was open. |
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Post by goodnewsbears on May 10, 2015 12:59:47 GMT
Inconsistent, no passion or jam, sleep walking through games, wouldn't those things have to do more with coaching? And that had happened before, throughout the years under CJ, not just this season, but since the team always seemed to find a way out of these stretches of inconsistency, nobody worried about it (except for some guys on BDC, me included, until they won the Cup in '11). And that's why I personally have no problem with Julien, even though I can understand how some would want a coaching change. They were inconsistent in '11 when they won it all and in '13 when they ended up two minutes away from a game seven for the Cup. |
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Post by UtahGetMeTwo on May 10, 2015 13:09:41 GMT
What PC was doing became stagnant and the President agreed. If Chiarelli doesn't make changes he will fail in Edmnton. He kept bringing in pluggers and keeping them past there prime which led to his being fired. PCs choice was to get rid of Julien and stay but he chose another direction. Good luck PC! PC gambled last year bringing in Iginla and his bonus laden contract. He had a team that could win the Cup, but they didn't get the bounces against Montreal. That put him up against the cap this year which lead to a team with no real first line RW. They still ended up with 96 points in a year full of injuries. But failed to add a good defenseman at the deadline to help with the loss of Seidenberg. There were some real good, depth defenseman that would have helped but nothing was done. PC pushed himself against the cap. |
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Post by MrHulot on May 10, 2015 13:10:42 GMT
These things can become some kind of habit, like "We know we can turn it up a few notches whenever we feel the need to", and then this season they simply couldn't. That's on the coach IMHO. Maybe they have tuned him out.
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Post by stevegm on May 10, 2015 16:34:40 GMT
The injuries and 96 point argument read a little too much like excuses. 96 points wasn't good enough, wouldn't have got you in the playoffs in the West either. Sure, losing Chara & Krejci for extended periods hurt this team. What was also clear, was how little margin for error this team had to begin with. Losing Chara was exacerbated by having to trade Boychuk, and losing Krejci was exacerbated by not replacing Iginla (down 2 top-6 FWDs). What did your eyes tell you when you watched this team? For me, wildly inconsistent and often absent any passion or jam. Just sleep-walking through games over extended periods of time. 96 points? Meh, how about finishing with a +2 goal differential for the year? This on the heels of getting bounced by the Habs in the 2nd round after winning the President's Trophy. PC deserves credit for his moves to help get this team to the pinnacle. Some of the "PC won us the Cup" is over-the-top. PC was better on the way up then when he got there. Just maybe, the Executive Team saw the same thing? "Passion, jam"...those things have been harped on...to death, by many since about 2009. So it can't possibly be team a team construction thing. LA and Chicago have also lost in the earlier rounds, within their window of being elite. Falling down, moments of failure. Those aren't to be unexpected. They're the norm. And everybody is better "on their way up". Since 2011, anything short of a Stanley Cup, is interpreted as failure. Fine for a fickle fan base to feel that way, but those in the game for a living know better. I agree PC won us the Cup is way, way over the top. I've been very critical of some of the decisions coming from his desk. Generally, I think coaches and GM's get way too much credit some times, and too much criticsm "all" the time. IMO, Chirelli's real importance, was that he changed a lot of attitudes toward the Boston Bruins from within the industry. Good players wanted to play here again. He built trust not only with his peers..but his players. He reintroduced the word loyalty back to the market after a very long absence. And I thought he excercised those intangibles quite intelligently. nothing otherworldly, but upper end of the scale. I don't think his actual, honest to God GMing will be that difficult to replace. Namely, because we know so much is done by committee. It's the intangible baggage, the distractions that could be all the headlines moving forward. Pretty sure you get this Crowls, but I don't "hate" Cam Neely. I wish some would stop that nonsense. Back to the OP, and the intended spirit of this thread. IMO, there is zero, in Chirelli's Boston "performance ledger" that would validate a dismissal. His resume yells he's near the very top of the ladder, not the "failure" rung. No where close. The subsequent hoopla for other teams to nail him down..including a promotion, in such a historically quick timeframe, kind of validates that. There are other reasons to whack a GM though, and I've defended Cams right to put in his own man. Pretty much impossible to achieve maximum success if your leadership isn't pulling together. They have to be tight teammates too, and it oozes right down to ice level. The management group needs to trust each other, and they need to cheer for each other. When that isn't there, something has to be done, and the more senior executive always makes that call. IMO, it's really that simple. I really have no problem, except I see another Tyler Seguin drama ahead. Nobody said much about that one, til the Bruins got bounced by the Habs. Overall, the team performed much better without Seguin, but right after the playoff exit, the noise increased. It got louder and louder, when things went in the dumper this year, despite the fact Tylers team regressed too, and his new team called him out publicly on some issues his old one did. Every year the Bruins don't win the Cup, someone will bring up TS. Some beat reporter will write about it, and overall, there was less industry dissatisfaction with moving Tyler.
Looking back just a few weeks, it seems the Bruin braintrust hopelessly fell on their own sword. Why didn't they attempt to leverage PC, and Julien if they wanted rid of them. They knew they had one of the most prized GM's in the league...or they should have. They knew, they had one of the most prized coaches in the league. Why didn't they attempt to deal them? Not like it hasn't happened before. Why throw them out? Why not get on the horn to other league presidents and suggest you might entertain them talking to PC? Why not go to PC and say. "Look Peter, you know this isn't working out. You're not happy and neither am I. You have our eternal gratitude here, but we can move forward win, win. I'm not gonna fire you, I'm gonna move you..you'll look like a hero. I'll get something decent in return, and neither of us will take a big hit"
Again...it's been done before. If that option is absolutely, contractually impossible(it isn't), then we can toss it. But if it was, we know it wasn't even considered. They didn't have the time between end of season, and the date of the dismissal. |
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Post by Deleted on May 10, 2015 22:18:39 GMT
^^^^This is the 1st time you laid off on Neely & Charlie being idiots & don't know what they're doing. I think it's time that we all just chill about this whole GM thing & wait & see what happens instead of worrying what has happened. I think PC is a great GM, but I think Cam has the better vision of what the Boston Bruins want to be. Whether you agree with that or not is irrelevant because it's Cam's & Charlie's team to make the call as to what they want this organization to be. Since 2010' the champs have been one that had a mixture of grit & talent. Since 2011' there's been more & more teams that have built their teams the same way the Bruins have been. With the smallish forwards playing on the top 6 & a having a 170-185 lb d-man as your most offensive threat that's not what the B's are. Neither is having a 6'5 d-man who doesn't play with much physicality. I think Cam has a vision of what he wants & the next GM will have that same vision, or he'll be gone too. I love that brand of hockey a heck of a lot better than the Penquins & Red Wings brand of hockey Kronwall excluded.
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