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Post by MrHulot on Nov 9, 2023 12:35:59 GMT
I don't remember a 13-game winless streak either, but the B's weren't going to make the playoffs in 2000, with or without Raymond Bourque.
The team had taken a huge nosedive in December 1999 and would win only eight out of 40 games before Bourque was traded. At the end of the regular season, the Bruins had missed a playoff spot by 12 points.
There may have been a theoretical chance to get back into a playoff spot by early March 2000, but the team wasn't simply good enough.
And I don't remember ever reading or hearing about Ray Bourque complaining that the Bruins didn't get the right players to play with him...
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Post by 50belowzero on Nov 9, 2023 13:44:21 GMT
Bourque "demanding" a trade might be a bit too strong, asking Sinden for another chance to win a Cup might be more to the point. Oh well, back to Joe in the HHOF, good for him and i hope his coaching career takes off.
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Post by dannycater on Nov 9, 2023 20:39:02 GMT
"We can rationalize it, and we can even respect it, but Bourque put himself over the team." For less than a half season Bourque put himself in front of the Bruins. The previous 20 years Ray laid his body and talent out to try n win. And agreed. I don't think Ray was necessarily selfish as much as I felt the B's just didn't get things done to help him achieve that goal except when the B's had the two Oilers Cup finals. And even then, B's relied on youth to invigorate team not trade deadline big additions. |
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Post by dannycater on Nov 9, 2023 20:40:45 GMT
Really hard to criticize Bourque at all...guy was just an incredible player for so many years and he was a loyal B..until the very end when it was time to leave. And it worked on in a Cup...that he brought back to Boston...give him credit for realizing his roots as a B. It took some guts and appreciation that B's fans appreciated his gesture....McAvoy won't be Bourque but he can and will I think be a great leading d man on this team for a long time, and a leader...in Ray's footsteps
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Post by MrHulot on Nov 10, 2023 11:48:48 GMT
"We can rationalize it, and we can even respect it, but Bourque put himself over the team." For less than a half season Bourque put himself in front of the Bruins. The previous 20 years Ray laid his body and talent out to try n win. And agreed. I don't think Ray was necessarily selfish as much as I felt the B's just didn't get things done to help him achieve that goal except when the B's had the two Oilers Cup finals. And even then, B's relied on youth to invigorate team not trade deadline big additions.
In 1990 Peter Stastny, Michel Goulet (I don't know if the Nordiques would have traded within their division) & Mike Gartner were available.
Instead they got Brian Propp after picking up Dave Poulin along the way.
They would have needed at least another top center.
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Post by MrHulot on Nov 10, 2023 11:55:14 GMT
Really hard to criticize Bourque at all...guy was just an incredible player for so many years and he was a loyal B..until the very end when it was time to leave. And it worked on in a Cup...that he brought back to Boston...give him credit for realizing his roots as a B. It took some guts and appreciation that B's fans appreciated his gesture....McAvoy won't be Bourque but he can and will I think be a great leading d man on this team for a long time, and a leader...in Ray's footsteps Nothing against Charlie Mc, but he needs to be more consistent and not go into headhunting. And he will never match Ray Bourque's shooting accuracy.
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Post by bookboy007 on Nov 10, 2023 17:40:32 GMT
"We can rationalize it, and we can even respect it, but Bourque put himself over the team." For less than a half season Bourque put himself in front of the Bruins. The previous 20 years Ray laid his body and talent out to try n win. He also didn't go to the media and say "if this team doesn't get me some better players to play with, I will leave in free agency first chance I get." The #1 D in history in terms of goals and assists never bitched about his regular pairing with Allan Pederson and Hall Gill. |
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Post by bookboy007 on Nov 10, 2023 17:42:04 GMT
Really hard to criticize Bourque at all...guy was just an incredible player for so many years and he was a loyal B..until the very end when it was time to leave. And it worked on in a Cup...that he brought back to Boston...give him credit for realizing his roots as a B. It took some guts and appreciation that B's fans appreciated his gesture....McAvoy won't be Bourque but he can and will I think be a great leading d man on this team for a long time, and a leader...in Ray's footsteps Nothing against Charlie Mc, but he needs to be more consistent and not go into headhunting. And he will never match Ray Bourque's shooting accuracy.
Will anyone? |
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Post by MrHulot on Nov 10, 2023 18:09:43 GMT
"We can rationalize it, and we can even respect it, but Bourque put himself over the team." For less than a half season Bourque put himself in front of the Bruins. The previous 20 years Ray laid his body and talent out to try n win. He also didn't go to the media and say "if this team doesn't get me some better players to play with, I will leave in free agency first chance I get." The #1 D in history in terms of goals and assists never bitched about his regular pairing with Allan Pederson and Hall Gill. I think it's sad that the Bruins never gave Ray Bourque a better "supporting cast". IIRC it was the Sporting News Yearbook 1990-91 that featured an article titled "Secretary of Defense", with a quote by Bourque, "we were so close and yet so far", about the SCF 1990.
Not one word about the B's being a one line team, with very little secondary scoring behind Bourque, Neely & Janney.
He definitely should have been the MVP that year. I don't care that Messier took over Gretzky's role, he had a much more potent team behind him.
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Post by bookboy007 on Nov 10, 2023 18:16:07 GMT
Thornton was sandbagged by MOC who is and was a rat fuck. Look at the numbers and then look at his line mates over the years. Knuble, Murray, Cheechoo. My kids are better skaters, a broken Dany Heatley etc… I will never understand the hate. Yeah he said some shit, but Mike O’Connell had a lot to say as well. But hey, Wayne Primeau. The veterans in the Bruins locker room, at the time of the trade, made MOC come 9to address the team. It did not go well for Mike. He took the heat for Harry advising the team to jettison Joe. Especially hurtful is GMs coming out to say they didn't have a chance to make an offer for Thornton. The bold has been a headline of the Thornton trade since the day it was made. Has any GM put his name to this claim? If so, I've never seen it. And I think it matters, because I have no doubt that some of the GMs of that era would say this anonymously to pour gas on the fire. It also seems to contradict Brian Burke's story that he made a better offer than the one the Bruins accepted, and that he 'babysat' O'Connell for some time, calling him on a daily basis. So at least one GM knew. Unless Burke is telling stories out of school, but he is at least putting his name to them. I can think of reasons why a GM doesn't call everyone in the league and say "give me your best offer." I can think of many reasons why you don't even bother to call some GMs - they don't have anything you want, you know Thornton is going to put up points and you don't want to see him 4 times a year, you have a rivalry with the opposing team of some sore (Edmonton?). So if the Bruins curated who they were willing to talk to based on what they wanted as an outcome, this could be an anonymous comment from a GM who was never going to get Thornton anyway. But it's a good soundbite that makes the Bruins look stupid if you don't dig into it. Bruins did a good job of making themselves look stupid. I don't think you have to like Joe Thornton to hate the trade. Even so, I can understand looking at Brad Stuart. He was one year younger than Thornton, a #3 overall pick, a defenseman (they take longer usually), and had been 20th in the league in D scoring the year before. He had size, was very mobile, and had a big shot, and in the year of the trade he put up good scoring numbers with 10 goals for the Bruins in just 55 games. In that era, D didn't score more than 60 in a season. He had 31 in 55 that first year in Boston. But he wasn't great defensively and really needed to have that rover role to put up the max points. They tried to get him to play better D, and the points went down and he looked uncomfortable, so when he asked to go back west, it wasn't the end of the world. But I wonder what might have been had he stayed and acclimated to the Bruins; he did, after all, go on to be a top 3 D for the Wings when they won their final title. And at the time, the Bruins' best D was Nick Boynton. They brought Brian Leetch back from the dead, but he was clearly done. They clearly wanted to reinvest in the blueline after nearly 30 years of having at least on HoF calibre D back there, and Stuart was the play. Cue the obnoxious "nope" buzzer. Sturm had some good years in Boston as the second piece of the deal, and Primeau was JAG who would play with energy and grit - in short supply at the time. But I'm not sure I would have been happier in the long haul with Burke's "superior" offer. He said he'd protect five the players, let the Bruins pick whoever they wanted from the rest, throw in another roster player, a prospect and a first. The best players available would have been Kesler and maybe either Ohlund or Salo. The Canucks weren't a playoff team so the other roster player likely wasn't much - maybe they'd have ended up with Rick Rypien or Alex Burrows, maybe Kevin Bieksa. In terms of their prospect pool, the Bruins might have been lucky enough to get Edler or Corey Schnieder, more likely Mason "Don't call me Lukas" Raymond. So Kesler, Rypien and Raymond plus a first. The first was #14 overall - Michael Grabner. Grabner had a couple of good years, but was notoriously frustrating despite his blazing speed. Claude Giroux was on the board. So was Nick Foligno. But the rest of the first rounders were pretty meh. That is better...but I would ask the Thornton defenders if you'd feel any better about it in hindsight? |
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Post by bookboy007 on Nov 10, 2023 18:27:44 GMT
Thornton was sandbagged by MOC who is and was a rat fuck. Look at the numbers and then look at his line mates over the years. Knuble, Murray, Cheechoo. My kids are better skaters, a broken Dany Heatley etc… I will never understand the hate. Yeah he said some shit, but Mike O’Connell had a lot to say as well. But hey, Wayne Primeau. It did not go well for Mike. He took the heat for Harry advising the team to jettison Joe. Especially hurtful is GMs coming out to say they didn't have a chance to make an offer for Thornton. Had to split the two responses. They did, and I remember Nick Boynton being the face of it. But to me, he came off like the kid in the playground who puffs out his chest and tries to claim everything is his because his dad's company sponsored the equipment, and the older kids are just staring at him and wondering how much trouble they'll get in if they hang him from his waistband at the top of the fireman's pole. It was such an entitled, tone deaf thing for a player who was, frankly, a defensive liability, to be saying. And it was no surprise coming from a guy who clearly had no perspective - drafted 9th overall after his junior team won the Memorial Cup, he refused to sign with the Capitals thinking he could squeeze them for more only for the Caps to decide to relinquish his rights and take the compensatory pick. Bruins drafted him 21st. No idea how much that move probably cost him. He thought he was a PMD; in the NHL, he wasn't, and he was definitely not gifted enough as a defender to have an attitude. He got a ring with Chicago for playing 7 regular season games and 3 playoffs games just 4 years after the Thornton trade. I've often wondered if some of the other veterans were a bit embarrassed by this whole thing. I mean...the veterans were guys like Tom Fitzgerald and Brian Leetch who had no legs in the organization. Travis Green...Oh No! Travis Green is unhappy! The only other guy is Murray and I can see him wanting answers because he was on the downside, and now he's in a situation where there's a lot of road to travel to win. But that team was always a bit of Team Joe vs Team Bruin, with Boynton and Raycroft team Joe among others. They weren't going to get better until that got fixed one way or another. |
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Post by bookboy007 on Nov 10, 2023 18:44:33 GMT
Thornton was sandbagged by MOC who is and was a rat fuck. Look at the numbers and then look at his line mates over the years.Knuble, Murray, Cheechoo. My kids are better skaters, a broken Dany Heatley etc… I will never understand the hate. Yeah he said some shit, but Mike O’Connell had a lot to say as well. But hey, Wayne Primeau. I always see this kind of argument as giving up. Because it's "yeah, he failed...but it wasn't his fault." I've gone through the linemates with shupe in the past, but just for reference...Murray was a 29 goal, 60+ point guy in LA with Stumpel before he played with Joe on the 700lb line. The first year with Joe...career high of 35 goals, but 60 points. Same as LA. Then they had the big year - 40+ goals and 90+ points for Muzz. Playoff fail against the Devils. 2 goals in 5 games from the Thornton line. Next year? 32 goals, 60 points. And the year after the trade, his year shortened by injury, he was on pace for 39 goals and 63 points. Joe didn't make him better. They made each other better for one year, and Joe forced Murray into a more constrained finisher role. Knuble was a bottom six player before he got a chance to play top six in Boston with Thornton and Murray. Played under 10 min the year before he moved up. On the top line, he had a 30 goal season followed by a 21 goal season. Was that Thornton or TOI? Well, when he left for Philly, he kept the TOI and set career highs in goals and points, then had multiple 29 goal seasons in Philly and Washington. He was consistently a high percentage shooter not because of sweet feeds from Joe; it was because he played close to the net. Cheechoo was a 25 year old who had been a 29th overall pick and was coming off of a 28 goal campaign in his first full season. We'll never know what he might have been without JTS, and back injuries meant he never went elsewhere and shone. It's also worth remembering that however you want to criticize the lineups around JTS, the Sharts went farther without him the year before the trade than they did with him in his Hart season. The 2003-04 Sharts made the Western Final. The 2005-06 Sharts went down in flames to the last good Oilers team with Hemsky and Horcoff and the last days of Ryan Smyth, and Roloson on a roll. The Joe side wants to look at his stats and not the players around him, the team results without him for context. You look at that picture, and it shows a much more bland picture of his impact as a player. |
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Post by bookboy007 on Nov 10, 2023 19:26:52 GMT
He also didn't go to the media and say "if this team doesn't get me some better players to play with, I will leave in free agency first chance I get." The #1 D in history in terms of goals and assists never bitched about his regular pairing with Allan Pederson and Hall Gill. I think it's sad that the Bruins never gave Ray Bourque a better "supporting cast". IIRC it was the Sporting News Yearbook 1990-91 that featured an article titled "Secretary of Defense", with a quote by Bourque, "we were so close and yet so far", about the SCF 1990.
Not one word about the B's being a one line team, with very little secondary scoring behind Bourque, Neely & Janney.
He definitely should have been the MVP that year. I don't care that Messier took over Gretzky's role, he had a much more potent team behind him.
It is sad, but when I look back, I'm not sure what exactly could have been done. Stastny and Goulet had some decent years with the Devils and the Hawks, but they were aging stars - there was a reason the Nords were awful. The Bruins didn't exactly have prospect capital with guys like Donato still a year or two from showing they were real prospects, and most of the other guys who would have careers already in the lineup. Not sure who they could have traded for who would have carried them past the '90 Oilers who were basically the '88 team that beat a deeper Bruins team but minus Wayne. Often, this seems to come down to the Bruins (notoriously) not spending the money to attract and keep players who would have helped them get by Edmonton, but in hindsight, I think it's a longshot that those moves were available. Same with the years after '90 when the Bruins had a wave of new players like Juneau, Oates and Ruszicka who made them deeper...just not as deep or as great at the top as the Mario-led Pens once they got Mullen and Trottier, Francis and Samuelsson, and Murphy, and developed Recchi and Stevens. They had to get by the Bossy/Potvin/Trottier Isles, the Gretzky/Messier/Kurri Oil, the Mario/Jagr/Francis Pens. There is no roster that you could confidently bet your house on winning those years against those opponents. But I agree...it would have been nice if they'd tried. The other path would have been to suck for a couple of years. They overperformed at the draft from 79-85 hitting a lot of ground rule doubles but no homers outside of Bourque. Maybe Janney. They were too good those years when they were never going to be good enough. |
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Post by sandogbrewin on Nov 11, 2023 1:35:29 GMT
He also didn't go to the media and say "if this team doesn't get me some better players to play with, I will leave in free agency first chance I get." The #1 D in history in terms of goals and assists never bitched about his regular pairing with Allan Pederson and Hall Gill. I think it's sad that the Bruins never gave Ray Bourque a better "supporting cast". IIRC it was the Sporting News Yearbook 1990-91 that featured an article titled "Secretary of Defense", with a quote by Bourque, "we were so close and yet so far", about the SCF 1990.
Not one word about the B's being a one line team, with very little secondary scoring behind Bourque, Neely & Janney.
He definitely should have been the MVP that year. I don't care that Messier took over Gretzky's role, he had a much more potent team behind him.
Yah the Oilers were still loaded. |
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Post by kelvana33 on Nov 11, 2023 16:43:12 GMT
Thornton was sandbagged by MOC who is and was a rat fuck. Look at the numbers and then look at his line mates over the years.Knuble, Murray, Cheechoo. My kids are better skaters, a broken Dany Heatley etc… I will never understand the hate. Yeah he said some shit, but Mike O’Connell had a lot to say as well. But hey, Wayne Primeau. I always see this kind of argument as giving up. Because it's "yeah, he failed...but it wasn't his fault." I've gone through the linemates with shupe in the past, but just for reference...Murray was a 29 goal, 60+ point guy in LA with Stumpel before he played with Joe on the 700lb line. The first year with Joe...career high of 35 goals, but 60 points. Same as LA. Then they had the big year - 40+ goals and 90+ points for Muzz. Playoff fail against the Devils. 2 goals in 5 games from the Thornton line. Next year? 32 goals, 60 points. And the year after the trade, his year shortened by injury, he was on pace for 39 goals and 63 points. Joe didn't make him better. They made each other better for one year, and Joe forced Murray into a more constrained finisher role. Knuble was a bottom six player before he got a chance to play top six in Boston with Thornton and Murray. Played under 10 min the year before he moved up. On the top line, he had a 30 goal season followed by a 21 goal season. Was that Thornton or TOI? Well, when he left for Philly, he kept the TOI and set career highs in goals and points, then had multiple 29 goal seasons in Philly and Washington. He was consistently a high percentage shooter not because of sweet feeds from Joe; it was because he played close to the net. Cheechoo was a 25 year old who had been a 29th overall pick and was coming off of a 28 goal campaign in his first full season. We'll never know what he might have been without JTS, and back injuries meant he never went elsewhere and shone. It's also worth remembering that however you want to criticize the lineups around JTS, the Sharts went farther without him the year before the trade than they did with him in his Hart season. The 2003-04 Sharts made the Western Final. The 2005-06 Sharts went down in flames to the last good Oilers team with Hemsky and Horcoff and the last days of Ryan Smyth, and Roloson on a roll. The Joe side wants to look at his stats and not the players around him, the team results without him for context. You look at that picture, and it shows a much more bland picture of his impact as a player. I'm not using those names as an excuse by any means, I'm using them to point out how JT made the players around him better. I think JT was a high impact player. |
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