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Post by bookboy007 on Apr 26, 2024 16:37:10 GMT
No the point is Grzelcyk should not have been on the ice, in the top-4, to put the Bruins in a bad position. Grzelcyk should have been dealt last summer. Actually before the Seattle expansion draft. The Bruins could have a much much tougher Lauzon. Sweeneys position on Grzelcyk is how we got this thread. Yes Wideman was shielded by Chara. But Wides was a much better NHL dman. I thought we got this thread so that people could scream incoherently about hating Grz without recourse to looking at any way of measuring the good or bad of having him on the ice? So when someone says "he's overpaid", that's not the issue - that would be finding a way to talk about measuring. Don't interrupt the incoherent screaming. Wideman. Boychuk. Bartkowski. Kampfer. Carlo. McAvoy. It was always thus, and in the regular season they didn't always go with the Chara-Seidenberg shut-down because they spread them out to cover the guys who were weaker. It's a strategy. It's used all over the league. I can't believe anyone is arguing this as a way to double down on how much Grz sucks. It's like saying Hitler was evil because Austria is in Europe. At least it's clear here that what this thread is really about is being bitter over decisions taken several years ago when they lost Lauzon because they protected Grz. I love that you have to reply to counter the point "the issue is that he's not reliable in the context of playoff hockey. How unreliable is over-blown, but he is a vulnerability and his penalty in game 2 was a turning point." Because it's not damning enough. So let's go back four years and be really angry over that decision now.
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Post by RichHillOntario on Apr 26, 2024 16:38:32 GMT
Yeah, but that's not really the issue. I mean, sure, you can say Sweeney cocked it up, but if they bought him out last summer, they'd have to pay him about $1.4M this year and next, and then pay his replacement at least $1M. So maybe playing him is costing them $1.4M in Cap on this roster - how would you like to allocate that to make this team more of a contender? I mean, maybe there was a deadline deal they couldn't make because of that Cap? Could be. Seems like a small thing. I still don't understand why people make a big deal out of him playing about half his TOI with McAvoy. Lohrei will play there tonight. Is he now ahead of Carlo and Lindholm on the depth chart? Of course not. Teams put a guy who needs some help with their best D all the time. It's strategic. It helps you get the most out of your asset and roll three pairs rather than shelter a 5-6. But the issue is that he's not reliable in the context of playoff hockey. How unreliable is over-blown, but he is a vulnerability and his penalty in game 2 was a turning point. Might be the last time we see him in the black and gold. Some people are going to have a lot of time on their hands. I think this season is it for Gryz. Monty understands that he has trouble with the physicality in the playoffs and unlike last year, he really just wasn't very good in the regular season either. However, I do think we need to honest about the Gryz/Lohrei comparison. I think the reality is that Lohrei is just about as likely to make a bad pinch or take a bad angle and get himself in trouble as Gryz is to get outmuscled or beat up in the corner. Both can very easily cost us goals. Pretending that Lohrei is a fully developed prospect and ready for top 4 playoff duty is a pretty big leap of faith. For as many good things as Lohrei has flashed for us, especially offensively, he's made just as many bone-headed plays, bad angles, etc. Technically they are both liabilities. It's just a little easier to watch a 6'4" defenseman cost you a goal then it is to watch a 5'9" defenseman to the same just in a different manner. That being said, Gryz does very little to contribute to offensive chances. Lohrei just might make that play that our other d wouldn't and get us a goal here and there. What you're saying about the two is fair, chappy. Lohrei is still raw and in the process of learning the intangibles of what it takes to be a pro defenseman including the use of his 6’4″ and 210 pound frame. Admittedly, that's my built-in filter for him and his needs, along with the hope he'll improve and he goes along. Matt-Gritless is a veteran who has reached his ceiling that includes his flaws as well as his attributes. At this point I see Lohrei edging ahead of 48 in terms of having a measured benefit on the club in terms of defending. I remember when the Bruins last played Buffalo, Lohrei had a couple of Sabres get a step on him just outside of Boston's blue line and zoom in for a scoring chance. He was indecisive in his reaction, pretty much slow to react and tried to recover with a stick check which was useless in its effectiveness. There was a wide gap between him, the Sabre player and the boards that he didn't cover. I know had that been Grzelcyk, rightly or wrongly I'd be pissed at him.
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Post by bookboy007 on Apr 26, 2024 16:45:00 GMT
Yeah, but that's not really the issue. I mean, sure, you can say Sweeney cocked it up, but if they bought him out last summer, they'd have to pay him about $1.4M this year and next, and then pay his replacement at least $1M. So maybe playing him is costing them $1.4M in Cap on this roster - how would you like to allocate that to make this team more of a contender? I mean, maybe there was a deadline deal they couldn't make because of that Cap? Could be. Seems like a small thing. I still don't understand why people make a big deal out of him playing about half his TOI with McAvoy. Lohrei will play there tonight. Is he now ahead of Carlo and Lindholm on the depth chart? Of course not. Teams put a guy who needs some help with their best D all the time. It's strategic. It helps you get the most out of your asset and roll three pairs rather than shelter a 5-6. But the issue is that he's not reliable in the context of playoff hockey. How unreliable is over-blown, but he is a vulnerability and his penalty in game 2 was a turning point. Might be the last time we see him in the black and gold. Some people are going to have a lot of time on their hands. I think this season is it for Gryz. Monty understands that he has trouble with the physicality in the playoffs and unlike last year, he really just wasn't very good in the regular season either. However, I do think we need to honest about the Gryz/Lohrei comparison. I think the reality is that Lohrei is just about as likely to make a bad pinch or take a bad angle and get himself in trouble as Gryz is to get outmuscled or beat up in the corner. Both can very easily cost us goals. Pretending that Lohrei is a fully developed prospect and ready for top 4 playoff duty is a pretty big leap of faith. For as many good things as Lohrei has flashed for us, especially offensively, he's made just as many bone-headed plays, bad angles, etc. Technically they are both liabilities. It's just a little easier to watch a 6'4" defenseman cost you a goal then it is to watch a 5'9" defenseman to the same just in a different manner. That being said, Gryz does very little to contribute to offensive chances. Lohrei just might make that play that our other d wouldn't and get us a goal here and there. Yeah, I see a lot of work to be done on Lohrei's game. He reminds me of Hamilton when he was young, but he's not as erratic. I still come back to the old coaching adage about forgiving physical mistakes more easily than mental ones, because I think from a coach's point of view, Grz's flaws are more physical than mental and that matters. Lohrei will make mental mistakes because he's a rookie but he has huge upside because of his physical tools. That's more of a gamble. Pick your poison. But I agree, I think Grz is done. Eventually, a guy who makes all the right decisions about things like the route to the puck and positioning etc. is still useless if he does everything right and gets blown up physically. And that's where they are with Grz.
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Post by 50belowzero on Apr 26, 2024 17:43:58 GMT
I believe Sweeney thought at some point Grzelcyk was going to be a cheaper replacement for Krug. I don't think he had any illusions that Matt would be a defensive stalwart but would up the offensive part of his game and be a reliable PP guy. The fact is neither came to fruition and while all the caterwauling about Matt has reached overblown proportions and every defensive mistake is his fault even when he's not on the ice i think the experiment has run it's course, Gryz and the B's will part company this summer. We only have to look at the LD depth with Lindholm, Lohrei, Wotherspoon and Brunet in Providence. This is without even considering whether Sweeney re-signs Forbort to a cheap deal or delves into the UFA Dman department. At any rate, thanks for your service Matt and happy trails.
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Post by bookboy007 on Apr 26, 2024 20:39:30 GMT
I believe Sweeney thought at some point Grzelcyk was going to be a cheaper replacement for Krug. I don't think he had any illusions that Matt would be a defensive stalwart but would up the offensive part of his game and be a reliable PP guy. The fact is neither came to fruition and while all the caterwauling about Matt has reached overblown proportions and every defensive mistake is his fault even when he's not on the ice i think the experiment has run it's course, Gryz and the B's will part company this summer. We only have to look at the LD depth with Lindholm, Lohrei, Wotherspoon and Brunet in Providence. This is without even considering whether Sweeney re-signs Forbort to a cheap deal or delves into the UFA Dman department. At any rate, thanks for your service Matt and happy trails. More fool he, if the bold is true. I know we've gone over this one before, but I don't remember EVER seeing that sentiment from the Bruins. You heard it from the talking heads and from fans, but I think it's more the case that back in 2012 when they drafted him, they had a general hard on for undersized NCAA defensemen. It was the era of people saying the Bruins needed a PMD all the time. And I think they were tired of getting burned trying to find D in the CHL because they'd had zero luck for a decade. Probably going back to Boynton. They had had success with Boychuk and McQuaid as retreads, and they spent a lot of time grabbing up other NCAA puck movers. The list was long at one point. So I don't think it was ever "replace Krug". I think it was more that they had a fascination with finding value in those overlooked, smaller NCAA PMDs (and an unacknowledged complex since both of the last two GMs were short, lightweight Harvard players). Grz's game was never really aggressive offensively - not at the NHL level - and even at BU, his numbers were inflated by "Get the Rock to Jack" playing with Eichel. His best points year, Eichel let the Hockey East in scoring by 27 points over anyone not playing at BU, and the guys on his line - Evan Rodrigues and Danny O'Reagan (a throw in in the Evander Kane to SJ trade to try to make Jack happy - a la Grz and McAvoy?) - came second and third. And yeah, the experiment has run its course. We've heard zilch about an extension for him, and while Sweeney is good at keeping a lid...no one is that good. And this regime has invested a lot in securing a top 3 D that will lead this team for the next 5 years or more. Much like the days of trying to beat the bushes for a PMD, I think they're now trying to fight through the clouds of wannabePMDs to find the more scarce commodity - big body D who can play hard defensive minutes, block shots, and lean on people near the net. Wotherspoon's not big, but that more what kept him here when Mitchell busted. But the type of player they seem to acquire in bulk now with Renouf and Regula and Callahan and Peake and to some extent, Brunet (tall but skinny) are over 6', at or over 200lbs, and less about offensive hockey than protecting the house.
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Post by sandogbrewin on Apr 26, 2024 20:50:39 GMT
No the point is Grzelcyk should not have been on the ice, in the top-4, to put the Bruins in a bad position. Grzelcyk should have been dealt last summer. Actually before the Seattle expansion draft. The Bruins could have a much much tougher Lauzon. Sweeneys position on Grzelcyk is how we got this thread. Yes Wideman was shielded by Chara. But Wides was a much better NHL dman. I thought we got this thread so that people could scream incoherently about hating Grz without recourse to looking at any way of measuring the good or bad of having him on the ice? So when someone says "he's overpaid", that's not the issue - that would be finding a way to talk about measuring. Don't interrupt the incoherent screaming. Wideman. Boychuk. Bartkowski. Kampfer. Carlo. McAvoy. It was always thus, and in the regular season they didn't always go with the Chara-Seidenberg shut-down because they spread them out to cover the guys who were weaker. It's a strategy. It's used all over the league. I can't believe anyone is arguing this as a way to double down on how much Grz sucks. It's like saying Hitler was evil because Austria is in Europe. At least it's clear here that what this thread is really about is being bitter over decisions taken several years ago when they lost Lauzon because they protected Grz. I love that you have to reply to counter the point "the issue is that he's not reliable in the context of playoff hockey. How unreliable is over-blown, but he is a vulnerability and his penalty in game 2 was a turning point." Because it's not damning enough. So let's go back four years and be really angry over that decision now. I would say the biggest frustration I hear, from Bruins fans, and agree with. Is why isn't Sweeney seeing the decline ? There was a time I liked Grzelcyk.
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Post by 50belowzero on Apr 26, 2024 23:49:33 GMT
I believe Sweeney thought at some point Grzelcyk was going to be a cheaper replacement for Krug. I don't think he had any illusions that Matt would be a defensive stalwart but would up the offensive part of his game and be a reliable PP guy. The fact is neither came to fruition and while all the caterwauling about Matt has reached overblown proportions and every defensive mistake is his fault even when he's not on the ice i think the experiment has run it's course, Gryz and the B's will part company this summer. We only have to look at the LD depth with Lindholm, Lohrei, Wotherspoon and Brunet in Providence. This is without even considering whether Sweeney re-signs Forbort to a cheap deal or delves into the UFA Dman department. At any rate, thanks for your service Matt and happy trails. More fool he, if the bold is true. I know we've gone over this one before, but I don't remember EVER seeing that sentiment from the Bruins. You heard it from the talking heads and from fans, but I think it's more the case that back in 2012 when they drafted him, they had a general hard on for undersized NCAA defensemen. It was the era of people saying the Bruins needed a PMD all the time. And I think they were tired of getting burned trying to find D in the CHL because they'd had zero luck for a decade. Probably going back to Boynton. They had had success with Boychuk and McQuaid as retreads, and they spent a lot of time grabbing up other NCAA puck movers. The list was long at one point. So I don't think it was ever "replace Krug". I think it was more that they had a fascination with finding value in those overlooked, smaller NCAA PMDs (and an unacknowledged complex since both of the last two GMs were short, lightweight Harvard players). Grz's game was never really aggressive offensively - not at the NHL level - and even at BU, his numbers were inflated by "Get the Rock to Jack" playing with Eichel. His best points year, Eichel let the Hockey East in scoring by 27 points over anyone not playing at BU, and the guys on his line - Evan Rodrigues and Danny O'Reagan (a throw in in the Evander Kane to SJ trade to try to make Jack happy - a la Grz and McAvoy?) - came second and third. And yeah, the experiment has run its course. We've heard zilch about an extension for him, and while Sweeney is good at keeping a lid...no one is that good. And this regime has invested a lot in securing a top 3 D that will lead this team for the next 5 years or more. Much like the days of trying to beat the bushes for a PMD, I think they're now trying to fight through the clouds of wannabePMDs to find the more scarce commodity - big body D who can play hard defensive minutes, block shots, and lean on people near the net. Wotherspoon's not big, but that more what kept him here when Mitchell busted. But the type of player they seem to acquire in bulk now with Renouf and Regula and Callahan and Peake and to some extent, Brunet (tall but skinny) are over 6', at or over 200lbs, and less about offensive hockey than protecting the house. I think Sweeney hoped Gryz would provide more offence, maybe not Krug like offence as Torey had 59 pts in his best year but more than Matt's 26 pt career high. I also think they figured with Gryz' PMD ability and skating that he could play a point position on the PP, neither developed. Nothing ventured as the saying goes but enough is enough.
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Post by bookboy007 on Apr 27, 2024 0:53:46 GMT
I thought we got this thread so that people could scream incoherently about hating Grz without recourse to looking at any way of measuring the good or bad of having him on the ice? So when someone says "he's overpaid", that's not the issue - that would be finding a way to talk about measuring. Don't interrupt the incoherent screaming. Wideman. Boychuk. Bartkowski. Kampfer. Carlo. McAvoy. It was always thus, and in the regular season they didn't always go with the Chara-Seidenberg shut-down because they spread them out to cover the guys who were weaker. It's a strategy. It's used all over the league. I can't believe anyone is arguing this as a way to double down on how much Grz sucks. It's like saying Hitler was evil because Austria is in Europe. At least it's clear here that what this thread is really about is being bitter over decisions taken several years ago when they lost Lauzon because they protected Grz. I love that you have to reply to counter the point "the issue is that he's not reliable in the context of playoff hockey. How unreliable is over-blown, but he is a vulnerability and his penalty in game 2 was a turning point." Because it's not damning enough. So let's go back four years and be really angry over that decision now. I would say the biggest frustration I hear, from Bruins fans, and agree with. Is why isn't Sweeney seeing the decline ? There was a time I liked Grzelcyk. See, that I get. But I wonder if the arrival of Peake, Wotherspoon, Mitchell and Regula plus the signing of Shatzy isn't a sign that he did see it. He was just limited in what he could do to get rid of him. And like I said to 50, I think Monty plays him because he does what he's asked to do but just isn't able to do-the heavy lifting. I'm convinced he's done in Boston though
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Post by sandogbrewin on Apr 27, 2024 14:42:52 GMT
I would say the biggest frustration I hear, from Bruins fans, and agree with. Is why isn't Sweeney seeing the decline ? There was a time I liked Grzelcyk. See, that I get. But I wonder if the arrival of Peake, Wotherspoon, Mitchell and Regula plus the signing of Shatzy isn't a sign that he did see it. He was just limited in what he could do to get rid of him. And like I said to 50, I think Monty plays him because he does what he's asked to do but just isn't able to do-the heavy lifting. I'm convinced he's done in Boston though He started in the playoffs this season. How many times did Sweeney need to see Grzelcyk crumble under the pressure of the playoffs ? LoL Matt was given another shot. It has become a laughing joke amongst the non-scout fan and Bruins media. It's except from Sweeney who decided to shove a diminishing player down everyones throat. Mitchell, Regula and Peeke are right-handed shots. Lends nothing to your argument...nothing. Congrats Grzelcyk defenders Matt got beat out by Wotherspoon. Who spent parts of the last 8 seasons in the AHL. Cause Grzelcyk couldn't clear a 6 year old girl from in front of the net. It's fun reading the last remaining crumbling, argument to defend Matt Grzelcyk.
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