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Post by mdsizzle on Jan 30, 2024 17:33:40 GMT
sizz is like the guy who you would want to kick someone's ass for you. I'd call him room enforcer Well, he definitely sounds like the guy you want protecting your goalie...fiesty, expendable, etc. 2 points! Below the belt!
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Post by mdsizzle on Jan 30, 2024 17:35:12 GMT
Well, he definitely sounds like the guy you want protecting your goalie...feisty, expendable, etc. [back-tracking] Sizz, I didn't mean to say you're expendable here on the forum...I, er...mean a guy we'd like to have...um..on the ice. [whew!] Meh.. I'll give you back one point.
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Post by bookboy007 on Jan 31, 2024 1:36:49 GMT
Uh-oh, I think someone has a serious case of ADS (Advocatus Diaboli Syndrome)... You're missing the point, book, because what Andrew Ference did wasn't "false toughness":(See 0:28 - 0:46, 1:23 - 2:32, 3:01 - 3:11 - once again thank you, mdsizzle, for posting this clip in a previous thread.) And I think that the Bruins would be much better off with someone like Andrew Ference on their current roster.
I'm sorry, book, and I really don't want this to look like a personal attack, especially since I, as I have posted a couple of days ago, think that you have contributed a lot of very valuable posts to this forum, but I'm sick of this "used car salesman" stuff.
For instance, Matt Grzelcyk, as I and others have pointed out many times, has no business being in the lineup over Kevin ShatnerKirk, Mason Lohrei or Parker Wotherspoon, period. I don't care if he makes $3.something mill or $4.25 mill per year and it's allegedly ridiculous to assume the GM could be that far off, because considering what he has brought to the table especially this season he should be making $0.0 mill. I don't care if other teams have worse dmen, or if you think the coaches would never allow him to do what I saw him do in every game I have watched this season, therefore I must be wrong, blahblahblah.
And this "false toughness is worse than doing nothing" line sounds exactly like a "used car salesman" pitch, or "Chamberlainism", at least as far as I'm concerned.
You're better than that, book, much better - at least you used to be. OK, that's funny. From "I don't want this to LOOK like a personal attack" to basically then giving a textbook definition of an ad hominem argument, to telling me to be best...it's just funny. I don't know why I bother repeating the points I've made before because your strategy has been to ignore them and double down that you saw Matt Grzelcyk play bad, but I would like to know what you think explains Grz being +6 while Wotherspoon is +3, and both Shittencrack and Lohrei are -4? Why does Grz have more points at ES than Shittencrack and basically the same points per game as Lohrei when he's "barely an AHL defenseman"? Why is it irrelevant to the idea that the coaches somehow treat him as a top tier D to point out that they don't use him in any special teams situation on a regular basis and that his ES TOI is only 4th on the team because he plays after the better D have killed penalites or run PPs? Do you want to argue that simply being paired with McAvoy on the game sheet is a more important measure? Do you want to talk about how often the coaches sub him off of the pairing with McAvoy in key situations, which is one reason why Charlie's ES TOI is several minutes higher than his nominal partner's? What about looking around the league at the quality of 5-6-7 D around the entire league to establish a realistic baseline of what teams have for those roles is not relevant to evaluating the quality of a guy who is 5-6-7 at any given time on the Bruins? Is it better to point out that this apple is not medium rare and has not been adequately seasoned before being barbecued? And sure, let's talk about the value for money dimension of the last year of a 4 year contract vs. a one-year UFA veteran signing or an ELC like those things are all signed under the same circumstances. As for the main point here, we'd moved on from Ference when Sizz implied you don't actually have to fight (which is what Ference would do - challenge the guy, whack the guy, offer to go, go) but respond to the incident. There's nothing rhetorical about me saying I think 90% of the scrums these days are bullshit and embarrassing. Maybe there's one guy in any scrum with evil intent, and because the other 9 guys know it, they hug it out and talk a lot. If you think that's worth anything at all in terms of standing up for your teammates, more power to you. I think it's weak and easily exposed the way Frederic exposed Chiarot. If there's no will to actually fight in those situations, don't pretend. And as I've argued, the precipitous decline in fighting and the Tkachuk story I relayed show that the league's will to have people fight has disappeared. The young players come up in leagues where you get suspended for longer and longer periods for fights. It's not part of their hockey world in the same way it was for those of us over 30 (let alone over 50). It would take the top fighters in today's game 4 seasons to tie Hammer Schultz's record for single season PIMs. I said I agreed with sizz - I would prefer someone go smash that Flyer's face. But I disagree with the interpretation that somehow there are teams in this league that would have done much differently. I haven't seen them. It's not that league. At least show you understand my point before you dismiss it.
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Post by zamboni24 on Jan 31, 2024 3:41:08 GMT
I think Ullmark sold it, top of his crease, got clipped and went flying, 2 minute penalty, desired result. The rest of the team knew it and it stemmed the Flyers push, no need evening it up. As far as the 2011 B's not letting that slide, it didn't help Marc Savard against the Pens, Cooke skated freely the rest of the game and then there was the staged bs the next time they met. What was their collective excuse? They all said no one saw it, lol, yeah right. I swear that still pisses me off, 50...the staged shit the next time they faced Cooke, Lucic lost his poise too that game and the B's lost because they concentrated so much on making up for what they didn't do the game Savard got injured...hated that. Wasn’t that long after when E. Kane was thinking — “If you guys won't take care of business — I’ll do it for you” !! m.youtube.com/watch?v=DHqtb3sclkg&pp=ygUNS2FuZSB2cyBjb29rZQ%3D%3D&noapp=1
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Post by MrHulot on Jan 31, 2024 9:05:37 GMT
Uh-oh, I think someone has a serious case of ADS (Advocatus Diaboli Syndrome)... You're missing the point, book, because what Andrew Ference did wasn't "false toughness":(See 0:28 - 0:46, 1:23 - 2:32, 3:01 - 3:11 - once again thank you, mdsizzle, for posting this clip in a previous thread.) And I think that the Bruins would be much better off with someone like Andrew Ference on their current roster.
I'm sorry, book, and I really don't want this to look like a personal attack, especially since I, as I have posted a couple of days ago, think that you have contributed a lot of very valuable posts to this forum, but I'm sick of this "used car salesman" stuff.
For instance, Matt Grzelcyk, as I and others have pointed out many times, has no business being in the lineup over Kevin ShatnerKirk, Mason Lohrei or Parker Wotherspoon, period. I don't care if he makes $3.something mill or $4.25 mill per year and it's allegedly ridiculous to assume the GM could be that far off, because considering what he has brought to the table especially this season he should be making $0.0 mill. I don't care if other teams have worse dmen, or if you think the coaches would never allow him to do what I saw him do in every game I have watched this season, therefore I must be wrong, blahblahblah.
And this "false toughness is worse than doing nothing" line sounds exactly like a "used car salesman" pitch, or "Chamberlainism", at least as far as I'm concerned.
You're better than that, book, much better - at least you used to be. OK, that's funny. From "I don't want this to LOOK like a personal attack" to basically then giving a textbook definition of an ad hominem argument, to telling me to be best...it's just funny. I don't know why I bother repeating the points I've made before because your strategy has been to ignore them and double down that you saw Matt Grzelcyk play bad, but I would like to know what you think explains Grz being +6 while Wotherspoon is +3, and both Shittencrack and Lohrei are -4? Why does Grz have more points at ES than Shittencrack and basically the same points per game as Lohrei when he's "barely an AHL defenseman"? Why is it irrelevant to the idea that the coaches somehow treat him as a top tier D to point out that they don't use him in any special teams situation on a regular basis and that his ES TOI is only 4th on the team because he plays after the better D have killed penalites or run PPs? Do you want to argue that simply being paired with McAvoy on the game sheet is a more important measure? Do you want to talk about how often the coaches sub him off of the pairing with McAvoy in key situations, which is one reason why Charlie's ES TOI is several minutes higher than his nominal partner's? What about looking around the league at the quality of 5-6-7 D around the entire league to establish a realistic baseline of what teams have for those roles is not relevant to evaluating the quality of a guy who is 5-6-7 at any given time on the Bruins? Is it better to point out that this apple is not medium rare and has not been adequately seasoned before being barbecued? And sure, let's talk about the value for money dimension of the last year of a 4 year contract vs. a one-year UFA veteran signing or an ELC like those things are all signed under the same circumstances. As for the main point here, we'd moved on from Ference when Sizz implied you don't actually have to fight (which is what Ference would do - challenge the guy, whack the guy, offer to go, go) but respond to the incident. There's nothing rhetorical about me saying I think 90% of the scrums these days are bullshit and embarrassing. Maybe there's one guy in any scrum with evil intent, and because the other 9 guys know it, they hug it out and talk a lot. If you think that's worth anything at all in terms of standing up for your teammates, more power to you. I think it's weak and easily exposed the way Frederic exposed Chiarot. If there's no will to actually fight in those situations, don't pretend. And as I've argued, the precipitous decline in fighting and the Tkachuk story I relayed show that the league's will to have people fight has disappeared. The young players come up in leagues where you get suspended for longer and longer periods for fights. It's not part of their hockey world in the same way it was for those of us over 30 (let alone over 50). It would take the top fighters in today's game 4 seasons to tie Hammer Schultz's record for single season PIMs. I said I agreed with sizz - I would prefer someone go smash that Flyer's face. But I disagree with the interpretation that somehow there are teams in this league that would have done much differently. I haven't seen them. It's not that league. At least show you understand my point before you dismiss it. I give up. You win. But I'm still not going to buy that car. Grz sucks. I trust my eyes, and I think I know a few things about hockey. I may have to admit that it would be better to watch him from a spot in the arena instead of in front of the TV. All the words in this world, in the few languages that I speak (or "pretend to speak" - if that makes you feel better), cannot convince me that Montgomery is right when he puts #48 on the ice and sits the three players I have mentioned (or Forbort) instead. (And my wife and I are still happy that back then the used car salesman at Rothrock's in the Lehigh Valley couldn't convince me to buy the shitty Honda that reeked of cold smoke like a gigantic old ashtray and couldn't pull the herring off the plate, as they say in Germany...)
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Post by MrHulot on Jan 31, 2024 9:24:37 GMT
Uh-oh, I think someone has a serious case of ADS (Advocatus Diaboli Syndrome)... You're missing the point, book, because what Andrew Ference did wasn't "false toughness":(See 0:28 - 0:46, 1:23 - 2:32, 3:01 - 3:11 - once again thank you, mdsizzle, for posting this clip in a previous thread.) And I think that the Bruins would be much better off with someone like Andrew Ference on their current roster.
I'm sorry, book, and I really don't want this to look like a personal attack, especially since I, as I have posted a couple of days ago, think that you have contributed a lot of very valuable posts to this forum, but I'm sick of this "used car salesman" stuff.
For instance, Matt Grzelcyk, as I and others have pointed out many times, has no business being in the lineup over Kevin ShatnerKirk, Mason Lohrei or Parker Wotherspoon, period. I don't care if he makes $3.something mill or $4.25 mill per year and it's allegedly ridiculous to assume the GM could be that far off, because considering what he has brought to the table especially this season he should be making $0.0 mill. I don't care if other teams have worse dmen, or if you think the coaches would never allow him to do what I saw him do in every game I have watched this season, therefore I must be wrong, blahblahblah.
And this "false toughness is worse than doing nothing" line sounds exactly like a "used car salesman" pitch, or "Chamberlainism", at least as far as I'm concerned.
You're better than that, book, much better - at least you used to be. I think you are too hard on Book... It's not him, way back in the day he was usually spot on, but he changed his setting to auto-dissagree when responding to me and the poor guys rational has been on a downward spiral ever since. Even when he tries to agree the post still just circles down the drain eventually. Speaking of... I REFUSE to believe that not sticking up for your teammates is just the way the NHL is trending, like Book said.. That is just a massive pile of steamy freshly shat shit. I see hockey players and teams being good teammates multiple time in every game I watch, which is why it sucks to see my Bruins not give a shit and do nothing when their goalie is slewfooted. It's a sign of a pussy ass team... Actually it's sign of the players not even being a team! What type of player doesn't stick up for his teammates?? Fuck, I did that in pond hockey when I was 10 and I bet most of you guys did too. But this Book planted idea of "it's just the way the nhl is" and it's the B's being like every other team is just pure garbage. I agree.
And unfortunately I never played pond hockey. I had to play soccer; when I was ten AFAIR I played on an "e jugend" (e youth, ages 8 to 11) team in an "e jugend" league, and I was booked (no pun intended) pretty often for arguing with the usually crassly incompetent (because in Germany they always thought that just about everybody could officiate youth league games) referees. I was also sent off a lot of times because I either went straight after a "perpetrator" or retaliated by tackling the bastard out of his cleats, all 4 ft and not many inches of me. My mother didn't like it one bit. Fortunately her youngest sister, who also introduced me to the music of The Beatles and The Rolling Stones, kind of "sponsored" me.
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Post by islamorada on Jan 31, 2024 11:39:49 GMT
Not reading the last segment of the thread then going on with a post is just wrong. Time is not on my side though. Book is correct that fighting is being slowly diminished both through the process of having developing hockey players not being pugilistic and the NHL protocol slowly picking out players who agitate ie. see Marchand. He is wrong in calling the Wizard of Gryz a 6th defenseman by defending the coach's decision to line him up on the first pairing because McAvoy knows him and his play. No, Lindholm is better with Carlo rather than McAvoy.
TOI also is not an argument to why Gryz is on the first pairing but not actually because of TOI. All I can think of is Donovan Leitch's gibberish in the crappy drug induced lyrics "First there is a mountain, then there is no mountain, then there is". I would suggest Gryz is a 6th defenseman in the regular season. He skates beautifully like Nancy Kerrigan, but he does not advance the puck well. So many times he completes an outlet pass only to find the receiver in no man's land. He is constantly being crushed deep in the zone, at least Lohrei can use his size to wiggle out of the scrum he generally creates. The Ference comparison is a comparison, not applicable. Yet, in the playoffs when a team is on a mission of going two months fighting to win, well, you need a nuclear deterrent for the aggressive players. Ktruck is a chicken shitte, he runs away from pugilistic encounters he creates like Lemieux did turtling. The referee's do not do well in the playoffs when this is more apparent btw. Gryz is a 7th defenseman thusly. If he is not offered a contract in the off season it will be a blessing especially if other 6th? defensemen are available. If a defenseman is 6'2" and weighs 210 pounds with a long stare (Frederic like), then he will make the likes of KTruck "turtle" or backdown. Fiddy is correct to say "the left side is weak" without Forbort and with Gryz. I don't mind Lindholm. he is fine when playing with Carlo or McAvoy. The Bs do need to find some size and snarl on defense.
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Post by dannycater on Jan 31, 2024 13:37:55 GMT
Not reading the last segment of the thread then going on with a post is just wrong. Time is not on my side though. Book is correct that fighting is being slowly diminished both through the process of having developing hockey players not being pugilistic and the NHL protocol slowly picking out players who agitate ie. see Marchand. He is wrong in calling the Wizard of Gryz a 6th defenseman by defending the coach's decision to line him up on the first pairing because McAvoy knows him and his play. No, Lindholm is better with Carlo rather than McAvoy. TOI also is not an argument to why Gryz is on the first pairing but not actually because of TOI. All I can think of is Donovan Leitch's gibberish in the crappy drug induced lyrics "First there is a mountain, then there is no mountain, then there is". I would suggest Gryz is a 6th defenseman in the regular season. He skates beautifully like Nancy Kerrigan, but he does not advance the puck well. So many times he completes an outlet pass only to find the receiver in no man's land. He is constantly being crushed deep in the zone, at least Lohrei can use his size to wiggle out of the scrum he generally creates. The Ference comparison is a comparison, not applicable. Yet, in the playoffs when a team is on a mission of going two months fighting to win, well, you need a nuclear deterrent for the aggressive players. Ktruck is a chicken shitte, he runs away from pugilistic encounters he creates like Lemieux did turtling. The referee's do not do well in the playoffs when this is more apparent btw. Gryz is a 7th defenseman thusly. If he is not offered a contract in the off season it will be a blessing especially if other 6th? defensemen are available. If a defenseman is 6'2" and weighs 210 pounds with a long stare (Frederic like), then he will make the likes of KTruck "turtle" or backdown. Fiddy is correct to say "the left side is weak" without Forbort and with Gryz. I don't mind Lindholm. he is fine when playing with Carlo or McAvoy. The Bs do need to find some size and snarl on defense. WITHOUT A DOUBT, THE BEST POST OF 2023-2024..ISLA NAILS THIS ON GRYZ AND CALLS BOOKTHEY ON HIS GRYZ BULLSHIT...The Kerrigan line was simply beautiful and descriptively critical at the same time. What a great fucking line.
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Post by bookboy007 on Jan 31, 2024 14:52:08 GMT
OK, that's funny. From "I don't want this to LOOK like a personal attack" to basically then giving a textbook definition of an ad hominem argument, to telling me to be best...it's just funny. I don't know why I bother repeating the points I've made before because your strategy has been to ignore them and double down that you saw Matt Grzelcyk play bad, but I would like to know what you think explains Grz being +6 while Wotherspoon is +3, and both Shittencrack and Lohrei are -4? Why does Grz have more points at ES than Shittencrack and basically the same points per game as Lohrei when he's "barely an AHL defenseman"? Why is it irrelevant to the idea that the coaches somehow treat him as a top tier D to point out that they don't use him in any special teams situation on a regular basis and that his ES TOI is only 4th on the team because he plays after the better D have killed penalites or run PPs? Do you want to argue that simply being paired with McAvoy on the game sheet is a more important measure? Do you want to talk about how often the coaches sub him off of the pairing with McAvoy in key situations, which is one reason why Charlie's ES TOI is several minutes higher than his nominal partner's? What about looking around the league at the quality of 5-6-7 D around the entire league to establish a realistic baseline of what teams have for those roles is not relevant to evaluating the quality of a guy who is 5-6-7 at any given time on the Bruins? Is it better to point out that this apple is not medium rare and has not been adequately seasoned before being barbecued? And sure, let's talk about the value for money dimension of the last year of a 4 year contract vs. a one-year UFA veteran signing or an ELC like those things are all signed under the same circumstances. As for the main point here, we'd moved on from Ference when Sizz implied you don't actually have to fight (which is what Ference would do - challenge the guy, whack the guy, offer to go, go) but respond to the incident. There's nothing rhetorical about me saying I think 90% of the scrums these days are bullshit and embarrassing. Maybe there's one guy in any scrum with evil intent, and because the other 9 guys know it, they hug it out and talk a lot. If you think that's worth anything at all in terms of standing up for your teammates, more power to you. I think it's weak and easily exposed the way Frederic exposed Chiarot. If there's no will to actually fight in those situations, don't pretend. And as I've argued, the precipitous decline in fighting and the Tkachuk story I relayed show that the league's will to have people fight has disappeared. The young players come up in leagues where you get suspended for longer and longer periods for fights. It's not part of their hockey world in the same way it was for those of us over 30 (let alone over 50). It would take the top fighters in today's game 4 seasons to tie Hammer Schultz's record for single season PIMs. I said I agreed with sizz - I would prefer someone go smash that Flyer's face. But I disagree with the interpretation that somehow there are teams in this league that would have done much differently. I haven't seen them. It's not that league. At least show you understand my point before you dismiss it. I give up. You win. But I'm still not going to buy that car. Grz sucks. I trust my eyes, and I think I know a few things about hockey. I may have to admit that it would be better to watch him from a spot in the arena instead of in front of the TV. All the words in this world, in the few languages that I speak (or "pretend to speak" - if that makes you feel better), cannot convince me that Montgomery is right when he puts #48 on the ice and sits the three players I have mentioned (or Forbort) instead. (And my wife and I are still happy that back then the used car salesman at Rothrock's in the Lehigh Valley couldn't convince me to buy the shitty Honda that reeked of cold smoke like a gigantic old ashtray and couldn't pull the herring off the plate, as they say in Germany...)You gave up a long time ago. But don't worry, you've clearly won the popularity contest part of this. At least sizz is good enough to admit that the reason he doesn't like my posts is because they disagree with him. I've never argued that Grz doesn't suck. I've only argued that you don't have to indulge in stupid conspiracy theories about a billion dollar business feeling beholden to the fucking janitor in its decisions on who play where, and that when you look around the league, Grz is no worse than most - maybe even all - 5-7 D. And if there's no conspiracy, the coaches must have reasons to do with how they want the team to play in icing Grz. Wacky. Oh, and instead of saying "I watch the games and this is what I see," I've tried to find tangible reasons why a coach might choose the way Montgomery has chosen, and sure enough, Grz has better counting stats than the players people here would like to see play ahead of him. Cue the cognitive dissonance machine. And if there's an easily observable pattern in all of this, it's that familiarity breeds contempt. Watching this game, I saw Wotherspoon make two or three plays that you coach out of players in minor hockey, but because people haven't seen him make those decisions over 6-7 seasons and in course of crushing playoff defeats, he gets a pass. And because he's younger, as is Lohrei, they get brushed aside as "young players need to make mistakes to develop." Which may be true, but to borrow a line of thinking from OC, that doesn't mean a young player who makes mistakes is going to become a good one. I've never argued Grz is good or should be a top 4 D in terms of how he's used (I don't know why danny thinks Isla's point Grz's style of play or abilities counters my point that the team doesn't use Grz like a top 4 and that putting him on the game sheet as McAvoy's partner doesn't make him a top 4). I've never argued he should be re-signed. All of this started because every GDT has become two comments about how much people hate Grz to every one that comments on something non-Grz. I think it's just drama. It's an easy fix in the playoffs. They're the best team in the league. But yes, let's spend all game angry at them for playing Grz. Or for signing him to a 4 year deal 4 years ago. As for the "respond" point, if you think the scrums and "responses" you see now aren't embarrassing far more than real then...sure. Whatever. I see a lot of show, not show up. And I don't know who you and sizz are referring to when you say "you see lots of other teams" doing it. You don't say who those teams are. But it can't be the Islanders even if they're good ol' Lou Lamourello's team. They have a bunch of guys who are as heart and soul as it gets. Brendan Gallagher throws a deliberate elbow into Pelech, gets a match penalty and a 5 game suspension - zero penalties in that game after it happened. No one even skates toward Gallagher as he stands there and does that "what, who, me?" Nothing. Are the Isles a pussy team? Or what about Detroit? Larkin gets caught in a scrum and knocked unconscious. He's lying on the ice face down, and Detroit's only response is for David Perron to skate over to the wrong guy and cross-check him in the back of the head. Detroit did nothing about it until third period when the game was out of reach. Way to stick up for your guy - a pussy cheap shot, and an after-thought fight by a non-fighter when there was no impact on the outcome of the game. That's two in the last month. Fighting isn't just down, it's borderline gone. Players holding each other accountable has declined with it and that's league wide. Maybe that means all teams are more pussy teams than they were in the 80s and 90s, and maybe it's a question of which teams are more or less likely to reach back to the old way of settling scores. It's relative from a competitive standpoint even if we want to be absolutist about it. I hate the fake toughness of hugging it out and stick jousting because I know that it's not going to turn into anything. It's not anger; it's pissiness.
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Post by bookboy007 on Jan 31, 2024 15:13:57 GMT
Not reading the last segment of the thread then going on with a post is just wrong. Time is not on my side though. Book is correct that fighting is being slowly diminished both through the process of having developing hockey players not being pugilistic and the NHL protocol slowly picking out players who agitate ie. see Marchand. He is wrong in calling the Wizard of Gryz a 6th defenseman by defending the coach's decision to line him up on the first pairing because McAvoy knows him and his play. No, Lindholm is better with Carlo rather than McAvoy. TOI also is not an argument to why Gryz is on the first pairing but not actually because of TOI. All I can think of is Donovan Leitch's gibberish in the crappy drug induced lyrics "First there is a mountain, then there is no mountain, then there is". I would suggest Gryz is a 6th defenseman in the regular season. He skates beautifully like Nancy Kerrigan, but he does not advance the puck well. So many times he completes an outlet pass only to find the receiver in no man's land. He is constantly being crushed deep in the zone, at least Lohrei can use his size to wiggle out of the scrum he generally creates. The Ference comparison is a comparison, not applicable. Yet, in the playoffs when a team is on a mission of going two months fighting to win, well, you need a nuclear deterrent for the aggressive players. Ktruck is a chicken shitte, he runs away from pugilistic encounters he creates like Lemieux did turtling. The referee's do not do well in the playoffs when this is more apparent btw. Gryz is a 7th defenseman thusly. If he is not offered a contract in the off season it will be a blessing especially if other 6th? defensemen are available. If a defenseman is 6'2" and weighs 210 pounds with a long stare (Frederic like), then he will make the likes of KTruck "turtle" or backdown. Fiddy is correct to say "the left side is weak" without Forbort and with Gryz. I don't mind Lindholm. he is fine when playing with Carlo or McAvoy. The Bs do need to find some size and snarl on defense. I don't see how what follows contradicts what I've said. To be clear, my point is that being McAvoy's partner on the game sheet doesn't equate to the team using Grz as a top defenseman. To me, you know who the coaches think are the top defensemen by who they put on the ice for special teams, who they put on the ice in key situations, and total TOI. Looking at those three measures, I see Grz with only slightly more TOI than Wotherspoon per game, 7 seconds per game in the month of January, putting them basically 5-6. He plays almost never on the PP (0:02 per game in January) and is sixth in PKTOI ahead of only Lohrei and the historically defensively inept Shattenkirk. And Grz plays with McAvoy under 40% of the time that 73 is on the ice in 5 on 5 situations. We have all seen Montgomery shorten his bench this year, much more sharply than last year. When that happens, even if Grz started with McAvoy, he's quickly replaced by Lindholm or often Shattenkirk if the Bruins are trying to come from behind. Notably, they've put Lohrei with McAvoy for 19.5% of McAvoy's 5 on 5 TOI this year - about half what Grz gets - and while McAvoy and Grz are +6, McAvoy and Lohrei are -4. McAvoy and Shattenkirk together has only happened for about 15 minutes of total TOI and they were -1. Curiously, Grz has played with Shattenkirk for almost 14% of his ESTOI and they're +4 together. So Grz is +6 with McAvoy and +4 with Shattenkirk, who is a -4 when he plays with McAvoy. All of that tells me that they see Grz as a functional bottom pairing D who drops out of the rotation when they need to shorten the bench. And that the way they seem to be using him does a pretty good job of managing his limitations to the point that his numbers are better than those of the other options available to Montgomery. Which would be pretty consistent with a coach trying to do the most he can with the resources at his disposal.
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Post by bookboy007 on Jan 31, 2024 15:14:46 GMT
Not reading the last segment of the thread then going on with a post is just wrong. Time is not on my side though. Book is correct that fighting is being slowly diminished both through the process of having developing hockey players not being pugilistic and the NHL protocol slowly picking out players who agitate ie. see Marchand. He is wrong in calling the Wizard of Gryz a 6th defenseman by defending the coach's decision to line him up on the first pairing because McAvoy knows him and his play. No, Lindholm is better with Carlo rather than McAvoy. TOI also is not an argument to why Gryz is on the first pairing but not actually because of TOI. All I can think of is Donovan Leitch's gibberish in the crappy drug induced lyrics "First there is a mountain, then there is no mountain, then there is". I would suggest Gryz is a 6th defenseman in the regular season. He skates beautifully like Nancy Kerrigan, but he does not advance the puck well. So many times he completes an outlet pass only to find the receiver in no man's land. He is constantly being crushed deep in the zone, at least Lohrei can use his size to wiggle out of the scrum he generally creates. The Ference comparison is a comparison, not applicable. Yet, in the playoffs when a team is on a mission of going two months fighting to win, well, you need a nuclear deterrent for the aggressive players. Ktruck is a chicken shitte, he runs away from pugilistic encounters he creates like Lemieux did turtling. The referee's do not do well in the playoffs when this is more apparent btw. Gryz is a 7th defenseman thusly. If he is not offered a contract in the off season it will be a blessing especially if other 6th? defensemen are available. If a defenseman is 6'2" and weighs 210 pounds with a long stare (Frederic like), then he will make the likes of KTruck "turtle" or backdown. Fiddy is correct to say "the left side is weak" without Forbort and with Gryz. I don't mind Lindholm. he is fine when playing with Carlo or McAvoy. The Bs do need to find some size and snarl on defense. WITHOUT A DOUBT, THE BEST POST OF 2023-2024..ISLA NAILS THIS ON GRYZ AND CALLS BOOKTHEY ON HIS GRYZ BULLSHIT...The Kerrigan line was simply beautiful and descriptively critical at the same time. What a great fucking line. When did I say he was a good player?
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Post by dannycater on Jan 31, 2024 15:17:51 GMT
WITHOUT A DOUBT, THE BEST POST OF 2023-2024..ISLA NAILS THIS ON GRYZ AND CALLS BOOKTHEY ON HIS GRYZ BULLSHIT...The Kerrigan line was simply beautiful and descriptively critical at the same time. What a great fucking line. When did I say he was a good player? when did anyone...other than Monty/Sweeney and his agent.
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Post by bookboy007 on Jan 31, 2024 15:24:03 GMT
I think you are too hard on Book... It's not him, way back in the day he was usually spot on, but he changed his setting to auto-dissagree when responding to me and the poor guys rational has been on a downward spiral ever since. Even when he tries to agree the post still just circles down the drain eventually. Speaking of... I REFUSE to believe that not sticking up for your teammates is just the way the NHL is trending, like Book said.. That is just a massive pile of steamy freshly shat shit. I see hockey players and teams being good teammates multiple time in every game I watch, which is why it sucks to see my Bruins not give a shit and do nothing when their goalie is slewfooted. It's a sign of a pussy ass team... Actually it's sign of the players not even being a team! What type of player doesn't stick up for his teammates?? Fuck, I did that in pond hockey when I was 10 and I bet most of you guys did too. But this Book planted idea of "it's just the way the nhl is" and it's the B's being like every other team is just pure garbage. Just to repeat this directly - I appreciate you admitting the only reason you don't like what I post is that I disagree with you. Feel free to go back to the echo chamber. So let's be clear what we disagree on for this one. As I said to Mr. Hulot - who are the teams you think are such good, old-school, stick up for your teammate teams? I gave two examples in the past month where teams lost one of their best players to headshots and one team did literally nothing despite having something called the Identity Line that supposedly sets that team's identity as tough, hard-nosed old school hockey while the other did nothing while the game was in doubt other than to cheapshot a guy who wasn't even part of the scrum. I see lots of milling around and hugging and big talk like Chiarot coming over to challenge Frederic, but very, very rarely do I see that turn into an actual response. It looks like a bunch of guys who have bought into the idea that this is how you act as a hockey player and because the league is not what it once was, no one has made them back it up. It's like all the Trevor Zegrases skating across the middle with their heads down so they can plan out a "Michigan" because no one has ever made them pay a price for it. I wish it was different. But I don't see the evidence you say you see. So show me. I'd love to see it even if it means that the Bruins are a pussy team compared to some other teams in the league.
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Post by bookboy007 on Jan 31, 2024 15:24:34 GMT
When did I say he was a good player? when did anyone...other than Monty/Sweeney and his agent. So how does the Kerrigan line "call me" on anything?
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Post by dannycater on Jan 31, 2024 15:37:08 GMT
All of that tells me that they see Grz as a functional bottom pairing D who drops out of the rotation when they need to shorten the bench. And that the way they seem to be using him does a pretty good job of managing his limitations to the point that his numbers are better than those of the other options available to Montgomery. Which would be pretty consistent with a coach trying to do the most he can with the resources at his disposal.
the Kerrigan line, for the record, was about Gryz, not meant to attack you book--a great line describing Gryz. You are defending Gryz and have done so even though it's in context with how he is utilized. I gave Gryz a C and was attacked for that, so I'm also talking in context....but I think in trying to explain or maybe sort of telling most of us to lay off of Gryz, you come off as defending him being a B's d in the first place.
A lot of us are just done with him...and blocking Lohrei for one's presence on the roster
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Post by MrHulot on Jan 31, 2024 15:50:56 GMT
Not reading the last segment of the thread then going on with a post is just wrong. Time is not on my side though. Book is correct that fighting is being slowly diminished both through the process of having developing hockey players not being pugilistic and the NHL protocol slowly picking out players who agitate ie. see Marchand. He is wrong in calling the Wizard of Gryz a 6th defenseman by defending the coach's decision to line him up on the first pairing because McAvoy knows him and his play. No, Lindholm is better with Carlo rather than McAvoy. TOI also is not an argument to why Gryz is on the first pairing but not actually because of TOI. All I can think of is Donovan Leitch's gibberish in the crappy drug induced lyrics "First there is a mountain, then there is no mountain, then there is". I would suggest Gryz is a 6th defenseman in the regular season. He skates beautifully like Nancy Kerrigan, but he does not advance the puck well. So many times he completes an outlet pass only to find the receiver in no man's land. He is constantly being crushed deep in the zone, at least Lohrei can use his size to wiggle out of the scrum he generally creates. The Ference comparison is a comparison, not applicable. Yet, in the playoffs when a team is on a mission of going two months fighting to win, well, you need a nuclear deterrent for the aggressive players. Ktruck is a chicken shitte, he runs away from pugilistic encounters he creates like Lemieux did turtling. The referee's do not do well in the playoffs when this is more apparent btw. Gryz is a 7th defenseman thusly. If he is not offered a contract in the off season it will be a blessing especially if other 6th? defensemen are available. If a defenseman is 6'2" and weighs 210 pounds with a long stare (Frederic like), then he will make the likes of KTruck "turtle" or backdown. Fiddy is correct to say "the left side is weak" without Forbort and with Gryz. I don't mind Lindholm. he is fine when playing with Carlo or McAvoy. The Bs do need to find some size and snarl on defense. Brilliant, Isla, just brilliant. Chapeau!
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Post by MrHulot on Jan 31, 2024 15:52:29 GMT
I give up. You win. But I'm still not going to buy that car. Grz sucks. I trust my eyes, and I think I know a few things about hockey. I may have to admit that it would be better to watch him from a spot in the arena instead of in front of the TV. All the words in this world, in the few languages that I speak (or "pretend to speak" - if that makes you feel better), cannot convince me that Montgomery is right when he puts #48 on the ice and sits the three players I have mentioned (or Forbort) instead. (And my wife and I are still happy that back then the used car salesman at Rothrock's in the Lehigh Valley couldn't convince me to buy the shitty Honda that reeked of cold smoke like a gigantic old ashtray and couldn't pull the herring off the plate, as they say in Germany...) You gave up a long time ago. But don't worry, you've clearly won the popularity contest part of this. At least sizz is good enough to admit that the reason he doesn't like my posts is because they disagree with him. I've never argued that Grz doesn't suck. I've only argued that you don't have to indulge in stupid conspiracy theories about a billion dollar business feeling beholden to the fucking janitor in its decisions on who play where, and that when you look around the league, Grz is no worse than most - maybe even all - 5-7 D. And if there's no conspiracy, the coaches must have reasons to do with how they want the team to play in icing Grz. Wacky. Oh, and instead of saying "I watch the games and this is what I see," I've tried to find tangible reasons why a coach might choose the way Montgomery has chosen, and sure enough, Grz has better counting stats than the players people here would like to see play ahead of him. Cue the cognitive dissonance machine. And if there's an easily observable pattern in all of this, it's that familiarity breeds contempt. Watching this game, I saw Wotherspoon make two or three plays that you coach out of players in minor hockey, but because people haven't seen him make those decisions over 6-7 seasons and in course of crushing playoff defeats, he gets a pass. And because he's younger, as is Lohrei, they get brushed aside as "young players need to make mistakes to develop." Which may be true, but to borrow a line of thinking from OC, that doesn't mean a young player who makes mistakes is going to become a good one. I've never argued Grz is good or should be a top 4 D in terms of how he's used (I don't know why danny thinks Isla's point Grz's style of play or abilities counters my point that the team doesn't use Grz like a top 4 and that putting him on the game sheet as McAvoy's partner doesn't make him a top 4). I've never argued he should be re-signed. All of this started because every GDT has become two comments about how much people hate Grz to every one that comments on something non-Grz. I think it's just drama. It's an easy fix in the playoffs. They're the best team in the league. But yes, let's spend all game angry at them for playing Grz. Or for signing him to a 4 year deal 4 years ago. As for the "respond" point, if you think the scrums and "responses" you see now aren't embarrassing far more than real then...sure. Whatever. I see a lot of show, not show up. And I don't know who you and sizz are referring to when you say "you see lots of other teams" doing it. You don't say who those teams are. But it can't be the Islanders even if they're good ol' Lou Lamourello's team. They have a bunch of guys who are as heart and soul as it gets. Brendan Gallagher throws a deliberate elbow into Pelech, gets a match penalty and a 5 game suspension - zero penalties in that game after it happened. No one even skates toward Gallagher as he stands there and does that "what, who, me?" Nothing. Are the Isles a pussy team? Or what about Detroit? Larkin gets caught in a scrum and knocked unconscious. He's lying on the ice face down, and Detroit's only response is for David Perron to skate over to the wrong guy and cross-check him in the back of the head. Detroit did nothing about it until third period when the game was out of reach. Way to stick up for your guy - a pussy cheap shot, and an after-thought fight by a non-fighter when there was no impact on the outcome of the game. That's two in the last month. Fighting isn't just down, it's borderline gone. Players holding each other accountable has declined with it and that's league wide. Maybe that means all teams are more pussy teams than they were in the 80s and 90s, and maybe it's a question of which teams are more or less likely to reach back to the old way of settling scores. It's relative from a competitive standpoint even if we want to be absolutist about it. I hate the fake toughness of hugging it out and stick jousting because I know that it's not going to turn into anything. It's not anger; it's pissiness. I never thought I would do this to one of your posts, but here we go: TLDR - AIDGAFF.
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Post by mdsizzle on Jan 31, 2024 15:58:41 GMT
I think you are too hard on Book... It's not him, way back in the day he was usually spot on, but he changed his setting to auto-dissagree when responding to me and the poor guys rational has been on a downward spiral ever since. Even when he tries to agree the post still just circles down the drain eventually. Speaking of... I REFUSE to believe that not sticking up for your teammates is just the way the NHL is trending, like Book said.. That is just a massive pile of steamy freshly shat shit. I see hockey players and teams being good teammates multiple time in every game I watch, which is why it sucks to see my Bruins not give a shit and do nothing when their goalie is slewfooted. It's a sign of a pussy ass team... Actually it's sign of the players not even being a team! What type of player doesn't stick up for his teammates?? Fuck, I did that in pond hockey when I was 10 and I bet most of you guys did too. But this Book planted idea of "it's just the way the nhl is" and it's the B's being like every other team is just pure garbage. Just to repeat this directly - I appreciate you admitting the only reason you don't like what I post is that I disagree with you. Feel free to go back to the echo chamber. So let's be clear what we disagree on for this one. As I said to Mr. Hulot - who are the teams you think are such good, old-school, stick up for your teammate teams? I gave two examples in the past month where teams lost one of their best players to headshots and one team did literally nothing despite having something called the Identity Line that supposedly sets that team's identity as tough, hard-nosed old school hockey while the other did nothing while the game was in doubt other than to cheapshot a guy who wasn't even part of the scrum. I see lots of milling around and hugging and big talk like Chiarot coming over to challenge Frederic, but very, very rarely do I see that turn into an actual response. It looks like a bunch of guys who have bought into the idea that this is how you act as a hockey player and because the league is not what it once was, no one has made them back it up. It's like all the Trevor Zegrases skating across the middle with their heads down so they can plan out a "Michigan" because no one has ever made them pay a price for it. I wish it was different. But I don't see the evidence you say you see. So show me. I'd love to see it even if it means that the Bruins are a pussy team compared to some other teams in the league. And just so you are aware the echo chamber isn't going to stop.. The process of me posting something, you disagreeing and me mentioning your settings is too fun.. I think you know it's all in fun spirited ball busting too. So, look, I don't even remember the name of the dude who slewfooted Linus.. I can't go back in time and think of a specific point in a game where something dirty was done and the other team accepted it. Doesn't mean the nhl I've known and watched my whole life is now filled with players who are shitty teammates and dint have each other's back.
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Post by mdsizzle on Jan 31, 2024 16:09:52 GMT
I think you are too hard on Book... It's not him, way back in the day he was usually spot on, but he changed his setting to auto-dissagree when responding to me and the poor guys rational has been on a downward spiral ever since. Even when he tries to agree the post still just circles down the drain eventually. Speaking of... I REFUSE to believe that not sticking up for your teammates is just the way the NHL is trending, like Book said.. That is just a massive pile of steamy freshly shat shit. I see hockey players and teams being good teammates multiple time in every game I watch, which is why it sucks to see my Bruins not give a shit and do nothing when their goalie is slewfooted. It's a sign of a pussy ass team... Actually it's sign of the players not even being a team! What type of player doesn't stick up for his teammates?? Fuck, I did that in pond hockey when I was 10 and I bet most of you guys did too. But this Book planted idea of "it's just the way the nhl is" and it's the B's being like every other team is just pure garbage. Just to repeat this directly - I appreciate you admitting the only reason you don't like what I post is that I disagree with you. Feel free to go back to the echo chamber. So let's be clear what we disagree on for this one. As I said to Mr. Hulot - who are the teams you think are such good, old-school, stick up for your teammate teams? I gave two examples in the past month where teams lost one of their best players to headshots and one team did literally nothing despite having something called the Identity Line that supposedly sets that team's identity as tough, hard-nosed old school hockey while the other did nothing while the game was in doubt other than to cheapshot a guy who wasn't even part of the scrum. I see lots of milling around and hugging and big talk like Chiarot coming over to challenge Frederic, but very, very rarely do I see that turn into an actual response. It looks like a bunch of guys who have bought into the idea that this is how you act as a hockey player and because the league is not what it once was, no one has made them back it up. It's like all the Trevor Zegrases skating across the middle with their heads down so they can plan out a "Michigan" because no one has ever made them pay a price for it. I wish it was different. But I don't see the evidence you say you see. So show me. I'd love to see it even if it means that the Bruins are a pussy team compared to some other teams in the league. Also, on the same topic in the other direction, you telling me you are unaware of the mandatory fight after a clean hit? That is sticking up for your teammate but arguably too much. Is this debate new to you? Because it's existence is working against your theory that the nhl is filled with players that are shitty teammates and don't have each other's back. Also, they're is a big difference between hitting a star and slewfooting your goalie. Nothing in the rules about not hitting certain players, right. Obviously there is a rule against skating into a goalies crease when the party is nowhere near and slewfooting your goalie. If somebody laid out pasta, it's nowhere big a deal as slewfooting your goalie. Shit even the refs called a penalty! Against the other team! Playing the B's!! It was a dirty ass play and players should have done something. Fuck, the game was OVER! Not even an excuse to try to avoid a penalty! It was OVER! Someone, anyone just have your goalies back FFS!
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Post by bookboy007 on Jan 31, 2024 17:14:57 GMT
All of that tells me that they see Grz as a functional bottom pairing D who drops out of the rotation when they need to shorten the bench. And that the way they seem to be using him does a pretty good job of managing his limitations to the point that his numbers are better than those of the other options available to Montgomery. Which would be pretty consistent with a coach trying to do the most he can with the resources at his disposal.the Kerrigan line, for the record, was about Gryz, not meant to attack you book--a great line describing Gryz. You are defending Gryz and have done so even though it's in context with how he is utilized. I gave Gryz a C and was attacked for that, so I'm also talking in context....but I think in trying to explain or maybe sort of telling most of us to lay off of Gryz, you come off as defending him being a B's d in the first place. A lot of us are just done with him...and blocking Lohrei for one's presence on the roster Yeah, no worries, danny! And like I said...familiarity breeds contempt. More than anything, I'm worried GOAT is going to sue people for copyright infringement given all the moaning about Grz. I don't think he's really "blocking" anyone. I can easily see why they would want Lohrei to play 24 min a night in Providence in all situations and not only work on his game but build his confidence. First few appearances, the kid looked almost as good as OC thinks he is, but the swagger got diminished when he had some tough outings. He seems particularly like he needs to work on his gap control and not getting lost in coverage against the cycle at this level. And some of the typical stuff like reaching when you need to move your feet (probably a tougher one for the tall D who have always used that reach to advantage) and getting better at tying up sticks. Honestly, on a weaker team, I think the kid would be in the lineup because they need him to learn on the fly. The Bruins are the top team in the East. They can afford to take their chances with Grz and let Lohrei develop for a few months and then bring him back for the playoffs as a better player. And I would say that if that logic seems too speculative...why is Wotherspoon playing ahead of him as well as Grz? Even if there was a conspiracy to play Grz where Mr Burns and the Stonecutters demanded it, they're playing Wotherspoon ahead of Lohrei, too. i think that means his demotion is a combination of waiver eligibility and development decision.
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Post by bookboy007 on Jan 31, 2024 17:15:37 GMT
You gave up a long time ago. But don't worry, you've clearly won the popularity contest part of this. At least sizz is good enough to admit that the reason he doesn't like my posts is because they disagree with him. I've never argued that Grz doesn't suck. I've only argued that you don't have to indulge in stupid conspiracy theories about a billion dollar business feeling beholden to the fucking janitor in its decisions on who play where, and that when you look around the league, Grz is no worse than most - maybe even all - 5-7 D. And if there's no conspiracy, the coaches must have reasons to do with how they want the team to play in icing Grz. Wacky. Oh, and instead of saying "I watch the games and this is what I see," I've tried to find tangible reasons why a coach might choose the way Montgomery has chosen, and sure enough, Grz has better counting stats than the players people here would like to see play ahead of him. Cue the cognitive dissonance machine. And if there's an easily observable pattern in all of this, it's that familiarity breeds contempt. Watching this game, I saw Wotherspoon make two or three plays that you coach out of players in minor hockey, but because people haven't seen him make those decisions over 6-7 seasons and in course of crushing playoff defeats, he gets a pass. And because he's younger, as is Lohrei, they get brushed aside as "young players need to make mistakes to develop." Which may be true, but to borrow a line of thinking from OC, that doesn't mean a young player who makes mistakes is going to become a good one. I've never argued Grz is good or should be a top 4 D in terms of how he's used (I don't know why danny thinks Isla's point Grz's style of play or abilities counters my point that the team doesn't use Grz like a top 4 and that putting him on the game sheet as McAvoy's partner doesn't make him a top 4). I've never argued he should be re-signed. All of this started because every GDT has become two comments about how much people hate Grz to every one that comments on something non-Grz. I think it's just drama. It's an easy fix in the playoffs. They're the best team in the league. But yes, let's spend all game angry at them for playing Grz. Or for signing him to a 4 year deal 4 years ago. As for the "respond" point, if you think the scrums and "responses" you see now aren't embarrassing far more than real then...sure. Whatever. I see a lot of show, not show up. And I don't know who you and sizz are referring to when you say "you see lots of other teams" doing it. You don't say who those teams are. But it can't be the Islanders even if they're good ol' Lou Lamourello's team. They have a bunch of guys who are as heart and soul as it gets. Brendan Gallagher throws a deliberate elbow into Pelech, gets a match penalty and a 5 game suspension - zero penalties in that game after it happened. No one even skates toward Gallagher as he stands there and does that "what, who, me?" Nothing. Are the Isles a pussy team? Or what about Detroit? Larkin gets caught in a scrum and knocked unconscious. He's lying on the ice face down, and Detroit's only response is for David Perron to skate over to the wrong guy and cross-check him in the back of the head. Detroit did nothing about it until third period when the game was out of reach. Way to stick up for your guy - a pussy cheap shot, and an after-thought fight by a non-fighter when there was no impact on the outcome of the game. That's two in the last month. Fighting isn't just down, it's borderline gone. Players holding each other accountable has declined with it and that's league wide. Maybe that means all teams are more pussy teams than they were in the 80s and 90s, and maybe it's a question of which teams are more or less likely to reach back to the old way of settling scores. It's relative from a competitive standpoint even if we want to be absolutist about it. I hate the fake toughness of hugging it out and stick jousting because I know that it's not going to turn into anything. It's not anger; it's pissiness. I never thought I would do this to one of your posts, but here we go: TLDR - AIDGAFF.Good call.
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Post by bookboy007 on Jan 31, 2024 17:37:32 GMT
Just to repeat this directly - I appreciate you admitting the only reason you don't like what I post is that I disagree with you. Feel free to go back to the echo chamber. So let's be clear what we disagree on for this one. As I said to Mr. Hulot - who are the teams you think are such good, old-school, stick up for your teammate teams? I gave two examples in the past month where teams lost one of their best players to headshots and one team did literally nothing despite having something called the Identity Line that supposedly sets that team's identity as tough, hard-nosed old school hockey while the other did nothing while the game was in doubt other than to cheapshot a guy who wasn't even part of the scrum. I see lots of milling around and hugging and big talk like Chiarot coming over to challenge Frederic, but very, very rarely do I see that turn into an actual response. It looks like a bunch of guys who have bought into the idea that this is how you act as a hockey player and because the league is not what it once was, no one has made them back it up. It's like all the Trevor Zegrases skating across the middle with their heads down so they can plan out a "Michigan" because no one has ever made them pay a price for it. I wish it was different. But I don't see the evidence you say you see. So show me. I'd love to see it even if it means that the Bruins are a pussy team compared to some other teams in the league. And just so you are aware the echo chamber isn't going to stop.. The process of me posting something, you disagreeing and me mentioning your settings is too fun.. I think you know it's all in fun spirited ball busting too.So, look, I don't even remember the name of the dude who slewfooted Linus.. I can't go back in time and think of a specific point in a game where something dirty was done and the other team accepted it. Doesn't mean the nhl I've known and watched my whole life is now filled with players who are shitty teammates and dint have each other's back. Of course it is! I wouldn't waste my time if I thought I was talking to a bunch of deadly serious on-line morons. I want to emphasize, again, that this isn't the NHL we've watched our whole lives. I just don't think the pussy hockey problem is particularly a Bruins problem. I see it every time I watch a game. The league has changed to protect the fancy Nancy Kerrigan types from the evil Gillooly's of yore. Young players come up unable to protect themselves from hits let alone consider what they'd do if someone came over and gave them a good smack for embarrassing their opponent with an excessive celebration. Listening to the radio this morning, they had Dreger on. Apparently Freidman made some comment about how Ottawa had let Tanev's camp know that they intend to be a contender next year, and Ottawa radio wants to know if that means Calgary gave permission meaning that there's a deal on the table, or if there's some tampering going on. They talked about how, in situations like this, no one is very strict about, say, an agent for player X talking to his team and the team casually wondering what another client who plays for Team Y might be looking for on his next contract when everyone knows trades are coming. And then they talked about player to player conversations which (finally) had Dreger say "you watch the warm-ups now and you've got players standing on either side of centre catching up and chatting away like old friends. Back in the day, that would have led to a yard sale." He's right. Add in the fear of concussion lawsuits. Add in the major crackdown on fighting in the CHL, where players are learning how to do it without getting killed. I just think that world is gone and there are too many pretty boys out there who think hockey is all about puck skills - you know, figure skaters.
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Post by bookboy007 on Jan 31, 2024 17:52:19 GMT
Just to repeat this directly - I appreciate you admitting the only reason you don't like what I post is that I disagree with you. Feel free to go back to the echo chamber. So let's be clear what we disagree on for this one. As I said to Mr. Hulot - who are the teams you think are such good, old-school, stick up for your teammate teams? I gave two examples in the past month where teams lost one of their best players to headshots and one team did literally nothing despite having something called the Identity Line that supposedly sets that team's identity as tough, hard-nosed old school hockey while the other did nothing while the game was in doubt other than to cheapshot a guy who wasn't even part of the scrum. I see lots of milling around and hugging and big talk like Chiarot coming over to challenge Frederic, but very, very rarely do I see that turn into an actual response. It looks like a bunch of guys who have bought into the idea that this is how you act as a hockey player and because the league is not what it once was, no one has made them back it up. It's like all the Trevor Zegrases skating across the middle with their heads down so they can plan out a "Michigan" because no one has ever made them pay a price for it. I wish it was different. But I don't see the evidence you say you see. So show me. I'd love to see it even if it means that the Bruins are a pussy team compared to some other teams in the league. Also, on the same topic in the other direction, you telling me you are unaware of the mandatory fight after a clean hit? That is sticking up for your teammate but arguably too much. Is this debate new to you? Because it's existence is working against your theory that the nhl is filled with players that are shitty teammates and don't have each other's back. Also, they're is a big difference between hitting a star and slewfooting your goalie. Nothing in the rules about not hitting certain players, right. Obviously there is a rule against skating into a goalies crease when the party is nowhere near and slewfooting your goalie. If somebody laid out pasta, it's nowhere big a deal as slewfooting your goalie. Shit even the refs called a penalty! Against the other team! Playing the B's!! It was a dirty ass play and players should have done something. Fuck, the game was OVER! Not even an excuse to try to avoid a penalty! It was OVER! Someone, anyone just have your goalies back FFS! I'd say the 'mandatory fight after a clean hit' is like a vestigial organ, though. And it's in as much decline as any other fight. But that one has other dimensions to it, too, like the fact that we only use that terminology because generally people don't think you should have to answer the bell after a clean hit. So part one - you hear every studio show talk about that not being part of the game every time it happens. Second thing I'd say, and it's a big difference in my mind, is that if it was a clean hit, there's no penalty, so you aren't sacrificing a PP chance if you go after the guy. Sure, they might call the instigator or give you the additional 2, but that's pretty rare, really, so that "punish them on the scoreboard" mentality doesn't conflict with taking physical measures. And lastly...that was a thing when guys like Iginla would get up after being smoked and want to fight the guy who hit them. It was about THAT player emphasizing the HE was going to ensure no one felt comfortable trying to take away his time and space let alone hit him. It didn't start as 'standing up' for anyone. At least, not the debate about whether you should have to fight after a clean hit where the player wasn't injured. And hey, I'm not saying I don't want someone to have Linus's back. Just like Detroit going after Freddy when he scored and then Detroit's goalie continued the motion of trying to make the save and slid partly into Frederic's path so he got clipped outside the crease. But if you're going to do it, fucking do it. Don't be Chiarot and skate over and say "if you do that again, you'll have to fight me" and when the guy says sure, how about now and I'll put the next one on credit you skate away and say "I said if you do it again...". That, to me, is tail between the legs exposed. GTFO Chiarot. I don't care if they start a scrum and Wes McCauley says "Both Guys - two minutes for delay of game" at the end. Stupid theatre and an insult to what that used to be. And just to be a prick about a technicality - he didn't get slewfooted. Get got tripped. Doesn't change anything, really, I'd be madder about it if the guy actually put his foot behind Linus then pushed him backwards so his head cracked on the ice with just that little back-plate to protect him.
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Post by 50belowzero on Feb 1, 2024 2:19:19 GMT
Not reading the last segment of the thread then going on with a post is just wrong. Time is not on my side though. Book is correct that fighting is being slowly diminished both through the process of having developing hockey players not being pugilistic and the NHL protocol slowly picking out players who agitate ie. see Marchand. He is wrong in calling the Wizard of Gryz a 6th defenseman by defending the coach's decision to line him up on the first pairing because McAvoy knows him and his play. No, Lindholm is better with Carlo rather than McAvoy. TOI also is not an argument to why Gryz is on the first pairing but not actually because of TOI. All I can think of is Donovan Leitch's gibberish in the crappy drug induced lyrics "First there is a mountain, then there is no mountain, then there is". I would suggest Gryz is a 6th defenseman in the regular season. He skates beautifully like Nancy Kerrigan, but he does not advance the puck well. So many times he completes an outlet pass only to find the receiver in no man's land. He is constantly being crushed deep in the zone, at least Lohrei can use his size to wiggle out of the scrum he generally creates. The Ference comparison is a comparison, not applicable. Yet, in the playoffs when a team is on a mission of going two months fighting to win, well, you need a nuclear deterrent for the aggressive players. Ktruck is a chicken shitte, he runs away from pugilistic encounters he creates like Lemieux did turtling. The referee's do not do well in the playoffs when this is more apparent btw. Gryz is a 7th defenseman thusly. If he is not offered a contract in the off season it will be a blessing especially if other 6th? defensemen are available. If a defenseman is 6'2" and weighs 210 pounds with a long stare (Frederic like), then he will make the likes of KTruck "turtle" or backdown. Fiddy is correct to say "the left side is weak" without Forbort and with Gryz. I don't mind Lindholm. he is fine when playing with Carlo or McAvoy. The Bs do need to find some size and snarl on defense. I think Lindholm is a top pairing LD and i think Forbort if he can stay healthy would be good on the 3rd pairing, it's the other LD spot that needs filling. Where that comes from who knows.
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Post by mdsizzle on Feb 1, 2024 13:13:11 GMT
And just so you are aware the echo chamber isn't going to stop.. The process of me posting something, you disagreeing and me mentioning your settings is too fun.. I think you know it's all in fun spirited ball busting too.So, look, I don't even remember the name of the dude who slewfooted Linus.. I can't go back in time and think of a specific point in a game where something dirty was done and the other team accepted it. Doesn't mean the nhl I've known and watched my whole life is now filled with players who are shitty teammates and dint have each other's back. Of course it is! I wouldn't waste my time if I thought I was talking to a bunch of deadly serious on-line morons. I want to emphasize, again, that this isn't the NHL we've watched our whole lives. I just don't think the pussy hockey problem is particularly a Bruins problem. I see it every time I watch a game. The league has changed to protect the fancy Nancy Kerrigan types from the evil Gillooly's of yore. Young players come up unable to protect themselves from hits let alone consider what they'd do if someone came over and gave them a good smack for embarrassing their opponent with an excessive celebration. Listening to the radio this morning, they had Dreger on. Apparently Freidman made some comment about how Ottawa had let Tanev's camp know that they intend to be a contender next year, and Ottawa radio wants to know if that means Calgary gave permission meaning that there's a deal on the table, or if there's some tampering going on. They talked about how, in situations like this, no one is very strict about, say, an agent for player X talking to his team and the team casually wondering what another client who plays for Team Y might be looking for on his next contract when everyone knows trades are coming. And then they talked about player to player conversations which (finally) had Dreger say "you watch the warm-ups now and you've got players standing on either side of centre catching up and chatting away like old friends. Back in the day, that would have led to a yard sale." He's right. Add in the fear of concussion lawsuits. Add in the major crackdown on fighting in the CHL, where players are learning how to do it without getting killed. I just think that world is gone and there are too many pretty boys out there who think hockey is all about puck skills - you know, figure skaters. Turned on NHL Network this morning and the very first thing I see is a clip on how when laking went down on a net front play, and is something you see 100 times a game but this just had an unfortunate result with Larkin going down and staying down, but three wings instantly make a B line for Zub and I think it was perron who was first to him and greeted him with a stick to the face... And the commentator even said the wings rallied around this and have been playing great. Now there was next to nothing on this play, seemed oddly innocent, but the guys on the ice reacted to the result.. EX-FUCKING-ACTLY what I was saying about Linus! I don't give a half a fuck if it was a slewfoot or a Bishop dive. You see your goalie go down you go do something about it. Why? Because you always got your teammates back. AND look what happened! You build team pride with some fucking emotions and heart! WWAFD. 2011 B's didn't stand for this shit and they did OK. Pussy ass nuck let Brad punch one of the wonder twins in the face repeatedly and did nothing. How'd it work out for them? The more talented team that was heavily favored on paper. See I wasn't even looking for an example you wanted and there you go... But I'd be willing to bet you've seen this countless times and just want to argue the other side.
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