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Post by dannycater on Feb 15, 2022 5:40:39 GMT
no you didn't. can't you even get a one line pivot close to the truth? put me on ignore too please. I'll never put you on ignore baby. Ignore what you say? Absolutely, but I won't click that mean button. bstnumbers did it to me...put me on ignore...so I went thru a stretch where I'd be posting and then all of a sudden he would chime in and I realized he never responded when I brought something up to him.....ignore is for pussies or entrepreneurs on yachts.
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Post by nitelite on Feb 15, 2022 6:16:19 GMT
You could also add "beat Halak out of a job" to Swayman's Price costume. The team GAA is 2.80. Swayman's is 2.22. Ullmark is 2.78. In 4 games, an unprepared Tuukka gave up so many goals, it bent the team GAA higher than the GAA of either of the other two goalies. If you take Rask and his four games out of the equation, Swaymark has combined for a GAA of 2.54 - good for 4th best in the NHL. So the sky is firmly in place for now. I don't think the story is as good as that would suggest. There have been a few too many beatings absorbed where games might have been much different with a couple of makeable saves. It happened with Tuukka too, but just...not this often. I didn't like the Pittsburgh game from Swayman, for example, but Rask had those games where shots that had no business found a way. Ullmark is the more vulnerable 'tender, though, because I think teams know that he can be beat with lateral puck movement. The Bruins - and especially the forwards and even more particularly the Cs - need to be immaculate at taking those cross-ice passes away. It's a weakness that can be managed to some extent, which isn't true about a goalie being 5' 7". The Bruins just need to recognize they may need to protect him that way to get the best results - or that they're going to have to be willing to take their chances. Team D and decision-making has been particularly bad this year, and a lot of the goals against have come from the inability of forwards to get the puck out along the wall, dumb plays on dump outs that don't get deep enough and allow teams easy re-loads, and an idiotic number of dumb and soft plays at the offensive blueline that have led to high danger chances the other way. I think Ullmark will be fine for what he is, but with Rask now officially out of the picture, I suspect this is Swayman's team in the playoffs and next year with Ullmark potentially even on the block for years three and four of his deal for a cheaper backup. Not that he doesn't still have things he needs to work on, but they don't have a better option that to let him run with it and hope that rookie naivete works in their favour as it sometimes does with goalies. Before they let Swayman run he has to start winning games against playoff teams. Why does he have to win them? He can most definitely prove himself by keeping his team in it! If he plays the same way he did against Nashville & ends up losing that game can't very well blame the kid for that.
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Post by mdsizzle on Feb 15, 2022 12:18:12 GMT
Since we are now down to two for the immediate future, maybe we can use this to track their progress. Since Tuuk retired its been a shutout for Swayman and a big-time tinker from Ullmark. In linus's defense, the Canes are not exactly bottom feeders and they smoked us up and down the ice, so not exactly an easy one for Linus.. Although he did look pretty putrid as far as the eye test goes and gross stars aside. If part of the question, in the title of the thread, who has the higher ceiling ? I think that is an easy question for me to answer- Swayman. I'm looking through Patrick Swayzes game logs. Most impressive win was against Nashville 42 save shutout gem. But he's got some ugly losses. Cassidy is not giving Swayman starts against the better teams. Gotta wonder a bit if that is by design. I don't think it just worked out that way with the schedule. Picking the starts definitely has to be by design, right? I can definitely see why they would baby Swayman a bit with easier starts when possible, especially when Linus has been used to seeing the better team EVERY start with the buffalosers. No need to possibly damage the psyche of the youngster... Keep putting him in an environment where he's got the best chance to succeed and build confidence.
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Post by mdsizzle on Feb 15, 2022 12:30:24 GMT
Before they let Swayman run he has to start winning games against playoff teams. Why does he half to win them? He can most definitely prove himself by keeping his team in it! If he plays the same way he did against Nashville & ends up losing that game can't very well blame the kid for that. That's the popular mindset. If a goalie plays a great game and keep the team in it, but the team can't get one, misses chances or nets or just plays stupid or the other goalie steps up... It's the losing goalies fault for not stealing a game vs one of the 18 skaters stepping up to pot that extra goal. And now we are back to a Tuuk debate...
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Post by stevegm on Feb 15, 2022 12:45:48 GMT
Why does he half to win them? He can most definitely prove himself by keeping his team in it! If he plays the same way he did against Nashville & ends up losing that game can't very well blame the kid for that. That's the popular mindset. If a goalie plays a great game and keep the team in it, but the team can't get one, misses chances or nets or just plays stupid or the other goalie steps up... It's the losing goalies fault for not stealing a game vs one of the 18 skaters stepping up to pot that extra goal. And now we are back to a Tuuk debate... I would argue it's more than the popular mindset. It's the correct one.
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Post by sandogbrewin on Feb 15, 2022 12:58:37 GMT
If part of the question, in the title of the thread, who has the higher ceiling ? I think that is an easy question for me to answer- Swayman. I'm looking through Patrick Swayzes game logs. Most impressive win was against Nashville 42 save shutout gem. But he's got some ugly losses. Cassidy is not giving Swayman starts against the better teams. Gotta wonder a bit if that is by design. I don't think it just worked out that way with the schedule. Picking the starts definitely has to be by design, right? I can definitely see why they would baby Swayman a bit with easier starts when possible, especially when Linus has been used to seeing the better team EVERY start with the buffalosers. No need to possibly damage the psyche of the youngster... Keep putting him in an environment where he's got the best chance to succeed and build confidence. My expectations of Swayman are the same as Ullmark. Treat them fairly when they win or lose. Not seeing a whole lot of that when Ullmark. "But but San its the way Ullmark loses" Yes you can deep dive the game. But treat them both the same in the evaluation. Not much to ask for.
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Post by stevegm on Feb 15, 2022 13:43:39 GMT
Picking the starts definitely has to be by design, right? I can definitely see why they would baby Swayman a bit with easier starts when possible, especially when Linus has been used to seeing the better team EVERY start with the buffalosers. No need to possibly damage the psyche of the youngster... Keep putting him in an environment where he's got the best chance to succeed and build confidence. My expectations of Swayman are the same as Ullmark. Treat them fairly when they win or lose. Not seeing a whole lot of that when Ullmark. "But but San its the way Ullmark loses" Yes you can deep dive the game. But treat them both the same in the evaluation. Not much to ask for. I think it's a lot to ask for, because "the way Ullmark loses" hasn't been the prevailing criticism. It's that he's been underwhelming as a 5.something mil starter, and some feel his underwhelming performance, is rooted in fundamental weaknesses, that they have gone into detail to explain. Which of course questions whether he's a 5 mil tender. If one disagrees, the manly thing to do, is state why, not try and reframe their thoughts as petty and uninformed. Personally, I haven't weighed in on this technical critique too much, because I don't consider myself as knowledgeable. Rather that at this point, imo, there is no clear #1, and the odds of getting a better one, coupled wth the investment may not be the way to go. IMO, we have what we have, and at this point, goal tending isn't our greatest need, so give them their reps, and hope one heats up. It isn't reasonable at this point, to write either off.
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Post by bookboy007 on Feb 15, 2022 18:39:14 GMT
That's the popular mindset. If a goalie plays a great game and keep the team in it, but the team can't get one, misses chances or nets or just plays stupid or the other goalie steps up... It's the losing goalies fault for not stealing a game vs one of the 18 skaters stepping up to pot that extra goal. And now we are back to a Tuuk debate... I would argue it's more than the popular mindset. It's the correct one. You think it's the right mindset that no matter how well a goalie plays, it's his fault when the team loses one no matter how poorly the rest of the team plays? I want my goalie to think that way to some degree - every goal, you want him thinking what he could have done differently to make that save. But I don't think it's really productive otherwise, particularly if it means you aren't paying enough attention to the mistakes made in front of him or the failings at the other end of the ice. There's definitely a benefit when you goalie can cover up mistakes frequently beyond just making saves. Your PMDs can be more willing to take risks. You don't have to play quite as safely. You still can't make soft, stupid plays but so much of offense in hockey is risk/reward that if you can take more risks and have the players who can capitalize when you do, the right goalie can help your offense.
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Post by mdsizzle on Feb 15, 2022 20:06:16 GMT
That's the popular mindset. If a goalie plays a great game and keep the team in it, but the team can't get one, misses chances or nets or just plays stupid or the other goalie steps up... It's the losing goalies fault for not stealing a game vs one of the 18 skaters stepping up to pot that extra goal. And now we are back to a Tuuk debate... I would argue it's more than the popular mindset. It's the correct one. So hockey is not a team sport?
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Post by dannycater on Feb 15, 2022 20:21:09 GMT
I would argue it's more than the popular mindset. It's the correct one. So hockey is not a team sport? it's a Teamu sport.
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Post by sandogbrewin on Feb 15, 2022 20:25:50 GMT
I would argue it's more than the popular mindset. It's the correct one. So hockey is not a team sport? Remember that when a goalie you like or dislike lets in a bad goal.
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Post by nitelite on Feb 15, 2022 20:29:06 GMT
I love this! I could talk all day about goalies.I don't fully agree with what Steve said with regards to mindset. However, his point is still valid, because when a goalie makes a big save. It's not always the team's fault. For instance whenever a particular play develops. The team may reduce the % of the scoring opportunity. But, maybe the goalie doesn't. Maybe he took the bait on the fake shot & dropped to early. Now, he may recover & come across & make a great save, but that's where Essensa comes in if that becomes a trend, or some goalies may have the attitude that the puck didn't go in, so he did everything right. That's not necessarily the case. So, you could have a goalie make 30-40 saves loses 1-0 & the goal wasn't a terrible goal, but he dropped a little too early & he reduced his chances of making that save too. It maybe splitting hairs, but that's the nature of the position. When your playing at the highest level.
The team I coach this year. We've had 3 goalies. 2 of them for some reason were going into the butterfly, but squeezing both their arms in against their body. Making themselves smaller & too much room upstairs. It took me about 3 wks to get them out of that habit.
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Post by mdsizzle on Feb 15, 2022 20:38:36 GMT
Picking the starts definitely has to be by design, right? I can definitely see why they would baby Swayman a bit with easier starts when possible, especially when Linus has been used to seeing the better team EVERY start with the buffalosers. No need to possibly damage the psyche of the youngster... Keep putting him in an environment where he's got the best chance to succeed and build confidence. My expectations of Swayman are the same as Ullmark. Treat them fairly when they win or lose. Not seeing a whole lot of that when Ullmark. "But but San its the way Ullmark loses" Yes you can deep dive the game. But treat them both the same in the evaluation. Not much to ask for. How am I not treating them the same? That being asked, I don't see how they should be treated the same from me you or the B's... Its a rookie with handpicked games vs a more seasoned pro. We expect them to do their best but there's a heck of a lot of diffences in each stage of their career and it's all being taken into account... There's even the pay to set expectations, but it sure is a lot of what have you done for me lately. If Linus let's in softies he gets called out, same as Sway, Tuuk or any other player that fucks up. That all seems pretty fair across the board to me.
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Post by mdsizzle on Feb 15, 2022 20:44:23 GMT
So hockey is not a team sport? Remember that when a goalie you like or dislike lets in a bad goal. Did my wife hack your account? Sounds like there is something specific from the past I said that you are holding on to.
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Post by sandogbrewin on Feb 15, 2022 20:48:38 GMT
There are some on here, not saying you, that say Ullmark is not a seasoned pro. Also some are saying that Swayman is way better than Ullmark. So the "oh he's a rookie so" is not gonna fly with me this season.
Again I say Swayman has a higher ceiling than Ullmark. But I am treating the two the same in evaluation. No handicaps or mulligans. Same critique.
Ullmark is leading, in the comparison, when it comes to success against playoff teams...So Far. Swayman has a chance to impress me tonight against an excellent playoff team.
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Post by sandogbrewin on Feb 15, 2022 20:49:52 GMT
Remember that when a goalie you like or dislike lets in a bad goal. Did my wife hack your account? Sounds like there is something specific from the past I said that you are holding on to. Nope nothing specific. I think you have been pretty fair.
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Post by stevegm on Feb 15, 2022 20:58:06 GMT
I would argue it's more than the popular mindset. It's the correct one. You think it's the right mindset that no matter how well a goalie plays, it's his fault when the team loses one no matter how poorly the rest of the team plays? I want my goalie to think that way to some degree - every goal, you want him thinking what he could have done differently to make that save. But I don't think it's really productive otherwise, particularly if it means you aren't paying enough attention to the mistakes made in front of him or the failings at the other end of the ice. There's definitely a benefit when you goalie can cover up mistakes frequently beyond just making saves. Your PMDs can be more willing to take risks. You don't have to play quite as safely. You still can't make soft, stupid plays but so much of offense in hockey is risk/reward that if you can take more risks and have the players who can capitalize when you do, the right goalie can help your offense. sorry, my bad, I skimmed the first line and misinterpreted the rest of mdsizz's point. I was trying to validate what I thought he wrote. I think it's the correct mindset to critique someones play, based on their play, not the teams score. Always. I've wrote multiple posts about how quite often, the best team doesn't win, how a game can turn into a blowout, just because of a couple bounces, and how important it is imo, to look beyond the score, for answers and perspective in some instances. To your other point, I too want my dmen to expect to thwart every 2 on 1, my centers to expect to win every faceoff, and my goalies to expect to stop every shot, and be disappointed when that doesn't happen, without blaming someone else on the team. Everyones quick to try and console that type of competitor. Thanks for bringing that to my attention.
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Post by mdsizzle on Feb 15, 2022 20:59:35 GMT
I love this! I could talk all day about goalies.I don't fully agree with what Steve said with regards to mindset. However, his point is still valid, because when a goalie makes a big save. It's not always the team's fault. For instance whenever a particular play develops. The team may reduce the % of the scoring opportunity. But, maybe the goalie doesn't. Maybe he took the bait on the fake shot & dropped to early. Now, he may recover & come across & make a great save, but that's where Essensa comes in if that becomes a trend, or some goalies may have the attitude that the puck didn't go in, so he did everything right. That's not necessarily the case. So, you could have a goalie make 30-40 saves loses 1-0 & the goal wasn't a terrible goal, but he dropped a little too early & he reduced his chances of making that save too. It maybe splitting hairs, but that's the nature of the position. When your playing at the highest level. The team I coach this year. We've had 3 goalies. 2 of them for some reason were going into the butterfly, but squeezing both their arms in against their body. Making themselves smaller & too much room upstairs. It took me about 3 wks to get them out of that habit. Ditto Nite... I don't get into alot of the in depth debates aside from goalies. You've got a point though... It's all about the eye test and general statements and game analysis when pointing the finger... AM I saying a goalie is never to blame, of course not. You name a situation and it's happened.. I think the biggest example in this debate is gm7 vs the blues... Most just say it's another case of Tuuk not being able to win the big one and yes, while he didn't win, I don't think the loss should be solely on him. Ya, sure if he made another save we could have won, but there are more relevant factors that's truly determined the outcome that he had no control over... Lie their entire team outplayed our entire team... Shit like that.
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Post by mdsizzle on Feb 15, 2022 21:01:29 GMT
Did my wife hack your account? Sounds like there is something specific from the past I said that you are holding on to. Nope nothing specific. I think you have been pretty fair. WTF San! You are talking crazier and crazier! Get a grip buddy!
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Post by mdsizzle on Feb 15, 2022 21:03:45 GMT
You think it's the right mindset that no matter how well a goalie plays, it's his fault when the team loses one no matter how poorly the rest of the team plays? I want my goalie to think that way to some degree - every goal, you want him thinking what he could have done differently to make that save. But I don't think it's really productive otherwise, particularly if it means you aren't paying enough attention to the mistakes made in front of him or the failings at the other end of the ice. There's definitely a benefit when you goalie can cover up mistakes frequently beyond just making saves. Your PMDs can be more willing to take risks. You don't have to play quite as safely. You still can't make soft, stupid plays but so much of offense in hockey is risk/reward that if you can take more risks and have the players who can capitalize when you do, the right goalie can help your offense. sorry, my bad, I skimmed the first line and misinterpreted the rest of mdsizz's point. I was trying to validate what I thought he wrote. I think it's the correct mindset to critique someones play, based on their play, not the teams score. Always. I've wrote multiple posts about how quite often, the best team doesn't win, how a game can turn into a blowout, just because of a couple bounces, and how important it is imo, to look beyond the score, for answers and perspective in some instances. To your other point, I too want my dmen to expect to thwart every 2 on 1, my centers to expect to win every faceoff, and my goalies to expect to stop every shot, and be disappointed when that doesn't happen, without blaming someone else on the team. Everyones quick to try and console that type of competitor. Thanks for bringing that to my attention. Was wondering why you all of a sudden switched teams...
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Post by bookboy007 on Feb 15, 2022 22:14:50 GMT
So hockey is not a team sport? it's a Teamu sport. No, it's a Teemu sport. Spelling matters, danny!
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Post by nitelite on Feb 15, 2022 22:56:06 GMT
I love this! I could talk all day about goalies.I don't fully agree with what Steve said with regards to mindset. However, his point is still valid, because when a goalie makes a big save. It's not always the team's fault. For instance whenever a particular play develops. The team may reduce the % of the scoring opportunity. But, maybe the goalie doesn't. Maybe he took the bait on the fake shot & dropped to early. Now, he may recover & come across & make a great save, but that's where Essensa comes in if that becomes a trend, or some goalies may have the attitude that the puck didn't go in, so he did everything right. That's not necessarily the case. So, you could have a goalie make 30-40 saves loses 1-0 & the goal wasn't a terrible goal, but he dropped a little too early & he reduced his chances of making that save too. It maybe splitting hairs, but that's the nature of the position. When your playing at the highest level. The team I coach this year. We've had 3 goalies. 2 of them for some reason were going into the butterfly, but squeezing both their arms in against their body. Making themselves smaller & too much room upstairs. It took me about 3 wks to get them out of that habit. Ditto Nite... I don't get into alot of the in depth debates aside from goalies. You've got a point though... It's all about the eye test and general statements and game analysis when pointing the finger... AM I saying a goalie is never to blame, of course not. You name a situation and it's happened.. I think the biggest example in this debate is gm7 vs the blues... Most just say it's another case of Tuuk not being able to win the big one and yes, while he didn't win, I don't think the loss should be solely on him. Ya, sure if he made another save we could have won, but there are more relevant factors that's truly determined the outcome that he had no control over... Lie their entire team outplayed our entire team... Shit like that. OH there's so many shit things that happened to Tuuk over the yrs. Rask wasn't bad in game 7, but that fucker JB made 3 HUGE saves early in the 1st period. The B's capitalize on 1 of those & it's a different game. The one thing that a lot of people forget about Tuukka & it's really unfair. Even Leaf fans don't remember it. I had to show about 4 of them one night at a Hockey Pool gathering. In game 7 in 2013 in OT. Tuukka absolutely robbed Lupal on a one timer a good 4 or 5 minutes before Bergie ended it! He came across & got that right pad out. If the Leafs score there? Everything else is forgotten about & that would've been another rock thrown at Tuukka. Yes, I've thrown my share too, but I always appreciated his talent. There's 3 goals on him that just UGH! Anyway...Tomas Vokoun in game 4 allowed 1 goal & lost. He was great in that game & yes, it was a well placed shot that beat him, but there's some Pens fans that say...."But it was Adam McQuaid who scored!" Lol.. I mean can understand where they're coming from, but at that time MAF was acting like the 2012 MAF against Philly. Tommie V was definitely the better choice.
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Post by mdsizzle on Feb 15, 2022 23:34:32 GMT
So slightly telling with Sway getting the b2b start tonight... Throw a shutout, earn another start. If this is the reason, then I'm all for it. Healthy competition is a thing... Good thing.
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Post by mdsizzle on Feb 16, 2022 12:20:12 GMT
Here's the updated score:
Swayman 2
Ullmark -1
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Post by nitelite on Feb 16, 2022 22:20:10 GMT
The more I watch both goalies. It becomes far more apparent as to who the better one is RIGHT NOW & it ISN'T EVEN CLOSE! I don't care who Swayman has won against, or lost against! Playoff team vs non playoff teams. It's irrelevant. Anyone who thinks Ullmark is as good as Sway after watching them both play in the Bruins net & can't see the difference yet, should never talk about goaltending EVER! Man- did I ever screw this up! A 23 yr old Swayman is twice the goalie & that's right now! In spite of the bad rebound goal last night. He moves like a goalie should, has 3x the smarts in reading the play that's happening in front of him. Doesn't scramble all over the fucking place whenever someone comes near the crease. Look at where Swayman is looking in those instances. He's 100% focused on the puck. LU-he guesses & throws himself wherever the guess tells him to go! If his 6'5" body stops it, it's by luck. There's very little skill involved in his technique for the NHL level! IF there ever was a great candidate for a buyout it's Linus Ullmark. I know it won't happen, because the Water Strainer is only in his 1st year of his deal. A buyout is spread out over a period of twice the remaining length of the contract. So, paying him for another 7 seasons & goes against the cap wouldn't be smart. I'm willing to bet that after this contract is done. Ullmark doesn't play another NHL game!
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