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Post by badhabitude on Feb 16, 2022 22:45:32 GMT
Picking the starts definitely has to be by design, right? I can definitely see why they would baby Swayman a bit with easier starts when possible, especially when Linus has been used to seeing the better team EVERY start with the buffalosers. No need to possibly damage the psyche of the youngster... Keep putting him in an environment where he's got the best chance to succeed and build confidence. My expectations of Swayman are the same as Ullmark. Treat them fairly when they win or lose. Not seeing a whole lot of that when Ullmark. "But but San its the way Ullmark loses" Yes you can deep dive the game. But treat them both the same in the evaluation. Not much to ask for. I don't believe that's fair. Ullmark has had 5 seasons in the NHL including this one. And 3 partial NHL seasons. Swayman has had 2 partial NHL seasons. We're talking apples and bowling balls here. Ullmarks shortcomings/bad habits - call them what you will - are most likely here to stay. The biggest fault is that scrambling thing he does. Can he fix that? That's one question for Ullmark. We can't point out a consistent Swayman weakness so far, matter of fact he has a whole bag of them, he is quite deft at finding new bad things to do. What's the problem - does he know not to do certain things? And has mental lapses? Or is it straight up a learning curve? Or is he simply an idiot*? So I see we have loads of questions for Swayman. - Can he answer them? We need more time * about my "idiot" remark. It is possible that you can be an idiot and still be an excellent goalie, Giles Gilbert is the prime example of that. Offensive player with the puck behind his net and he'd turn and face him straight up rather than covering a post and looking over his shoulder.
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Post by badhabitude on Feb 16, 2022 23:12:28 GMT
The more I watch both goalies. It becomes far more apparent as to who the better one is RIGHT NOW & it ISN'T EVEN CLOSE! I don't care who Swayman has won against, or lost against! Playoff team vs non playoff teams. It's irrelevant. Anyone who thinks Ullmark is as good as Sway after watching them both play in the Bruins net & can't see the difference yet, should never talk about goaltending EVER! Man- did I ever screw this up! A 23 yr old Swayman is twice the goalie & that's right now! In spite of the bad rebound goal last night. He moves like a goalie should, has 3x the smarts in reading the play that's happening in front of him. Doesn't scramble all over the fucking place whenever someone comes near the crease. Look at where Swayman is looking in those instances. He's 100% focused on the puck. LU-he guesses & throws himself wherever the guess tells him to go! If his 6'5" body stops it, it's by luck. There's very little skill involved in his technique for the NHL level! IF there ever was a great candidate for a buyout it's Linus Ullmark. I know it won't happen, because the Water Strainer is only in his 1st year of his deal. A buyout is spread out over a period of twice the remaining length of the contract. So, paying him for another 7 seasons & goes against the cap wouldn't be smart. I'm willing to bet that after this contract is done. Ullmark doesn't play another NHL game! You're way overstating it, however I very generally agree. And I think you're overlooking Swayman's problems - last night's version, rebound control and being totally outclassed in the shootout. I'm not as bullish on Swayman as I once was. As I watched Rask develop I noticed he totally conquered one problem after another. I can't remember the order, but I remember his puck handling was horrendous, screaming at the tv "DON'T PLAY IT - JUST TEND THE GOAL!!" then he must have played pickup hockey with his goal stick as a forward all summer because his puck handling improved over 100% that following season. Then it was the catching glove, watched him get burned all season and I recall a game v. the Isles late in the season where Tavares just ripped one high glove. He must have played catcher for 3 triple A teams that summer because the next season his glove hand improved over 100%. I'm not seeing that with Swayman, no one thing, but it seems a new bag of tricks every time he goes out.
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Post by nitelite on Feb 16, 2022 23:14:06 GMT
My expectations of Swayman are the same as Ullmark. Treat them fairly when they win or lose. Not seeing a whole lot of that when Ullmark. "But but San its the way Ullmark loses" Yes you can deep dive the game. But treat them both the same in the evaluation. Not much to ask for. I don't believe that's fair. Ullmark has had 5 seasons in the NHL including this one. And 3 partial NHL seasons. Swayman has had 2 partial NHL seasons. We're talking apples and bowling balls here. Ullmarks shortcomings/bad habits - call them what you will - are most likely here to stay. The biggest fault is that scrambling thing he does. Can he fix that? That's one question for Ullmark. We can't point out a consistent Swayman weakness so far, matter of fact he has a whole bag of them, he is quite deft at finding new bad things to do. What's the problem - does he know not to do certain things? And has mental lapses? Or is it straight up a learning curve? Or is he simply an idiot*? So I see we have loads of questions for Swayman. - Can he answer them? We need more time * about my "idiot" remark. It is possible that you can be an idiot and still be an excellent goalie, Giles Gilbert is the prime example of that. Offensive player with the puck behind his net and he'd turn and face him straight up rather than covering a post and looking over his shoulder. Finding bad things. Like what for example? He still has a lot to learn, but he's still going in an upward trajectory.
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Post by sandogbrewin on Feb 16, 2022 23:15:28 GMT
"Ullmark has had 5 seasons in the NHL including this one. And 3 partial NHL seasons.Swayman has had 2 partial NHL seasons."
Then the OP needs to change the title of the thread. Already Swayman doesn't have to beat playoff teams, SV% against good teams doesn't count and the won loss record isn't starting from the beginning of season.
Any more goal post moving coming up ? This thread truly isn't one goalie versus another goalie.
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Post by nitelite on Feb 16, 2022 23:27:17 GMT
The more I watch both goalies. It becomes far more apparent as to who the better one is RIGHT NOW & it ISN'T EVEN CLOSE! I don't care who Swayman has won against, or lost against! Playoff team vs non playoff teams. It's irrelevant. Anyone who thinks Ullmark is as good as Sway after watching them both play in the Bruins net & can't see the difference yet, should never talk about goaltending EVER! Man- did I ever screw this up! A 23 yr old Swayman is twice the goalie & that's right now! In spite of the bad rebound goal last night. He moves like a goalie should, has 3x the smarts in reading the play that's happening in front of him. Doesn't scramble all over the fucking place whenever someone comes near the crease. Look at where Swayman is looking in those instances. He's 100% focused on the puck. LU-he guesses & throws himself wherever the guess tells him to go! If his 6'5" body stops it, it's by luck. There's very little skill involved in his technique for the NHL level! IF there ever was a great candidate for a buyout it's Linus Ullmark. I know it won't happen, because the Water Strainer is only in his 1st year of his deal. A buyout is spread out over a period of twice the remaining length of the contract. So, paying him for another 7 seasons & goes against the cap wouldn't be smart. I'm willing to bet that after this contract is done. Ullmark doesn't play another NHL game! You're way overstating it, however I very generally agree. And I think you're overlooking Swayman's problems - last night's version, rebound control and being totally outclassed in the shootout. I'm not as bullish on Swayman as I once was. As I watched Rask develop I noticed he totally conquered one problem after another. I can't remember the order, but I remember his puck handling was horrendous, screaming at the tv "DON'T PLAY IT - JUST TEND THE GOAL!!" then he must have played pickup hockey with his goal stick as a forward all summer because his puck handling improved over 100% that following season. Then it was the catching glove, watched him get burned all season and I recall a game v. the Isles late in the season where Tavares just ripped one high glove. He must have played catcher for 3 triple A teams that summer because the next season his glove hand improved over 100%. I'm not seeing that with Swayman, no one thing, but it seems a new bag of tricks every time he goes out. I'm not over looking them at all. I'm not concerned, because he's still learning. He's going to have hiccups, he's gonna have some rough nights. Which is why I'm putting him so much better. LU isn't going to get better, unless he changes a lot of his game, but I don't think he's athletic enough to do some of the things that's required. Swayman is a much better goalie as a rookie, with ample opportunity to grow; than LU is at his prime. As far as the shootout goes? Igor is one of the top 3 goalies on the planet right now. So, I don't think that's fair to Swayman to throw that out there.
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Post by badhabitude on Feb 16, 2022 23:31:04 GMT
I don't believe that's fair. Ullmark has had 5 seasons in the NHL including this one. And 3 partial NHL seasons. Swayman has had 2 partial NHL seasons. We're talking apples and bowling balls here. Ullmarks shortcomings/bad habits - call them what you will - are most likely here to stay. The biggest fault is that scrambling thing he does. Can he fix that? That's one question for Ullmark. We can't point out a consistent Swayman weakness so far, matter of fact he has a whole bag of them, he is quite deft at finding new bad things to do. What's the problem - does he know not to do certain things? And has mental lapses? Or is it straight up a learning curve? Or is he simply an idiot*? So I see we have loads of questions for Swayman. - Can he answer them? We need more time * about my "idiot" remark. It is possible that you can be an idiot and still be an excellent goalie, Giles Gilbert is the prime example of that. Offensive player with the puck behind his net and he'd turn and face him straight up rather than covering a post and looking over his shoulder. Finding bad things. Like what for example? He still has a lot to learn, but he's still going in an upward trajectory. Bad rebound control in the game (mistake) Zibanejab just totally faked him out - that one I wouldn't call a mental error, he just got smoked by a really good move. On both the Panarin goal and the shootout winner he overcommitted to the point where he couldn't move, he was in a complete split, skate well short of the goal line. (mistake) I hadn't noticed those things before, only the overcommittal in this game was repeated and only in this game. I'm NOT saying these mistakes are cumulative, he seems to "fix" them by the next game, but then new mistakes. I'm not sure if its an upward trajectory or maybe there is one or more common element I haven't noticed yet.
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Post by badhabitude on Feb 16, 2022 23:34:12 GMT
You're way overstating it, however I very generally agree. And I think you're overlooking Swayman's problems - last night's version, rebound control and being totally outclassed in the shootout. I'm not as bullish on Swayman as I once was. As I watched Rask develop I noticed he totally conquered one problem after another. I can't remember the order, but I remember his puck handling was horrendous, screaming at the tv "DON'T PLAY IT - JUST TEND THE GOAL!!" then he must have played pickup hockey with his goal stick as a forward all summer because his puck handling improved over 100% that following season. Then it was the catching glove, watched him get burned all season and I recall a game v. the Isles late in the season where Tavares just ripped one high glove. He must have played catcher for 3 triple A teams that summer because the next season his glove hand improved over 100%. I'm not seeing that with Swayman, no one thing, but it seems a new bag of tricks every time he goes out. I'm not over looking them at all. I'm not concerned, because he's still learning. He's going to have hiccups, he's gonna have some rough nights. Which is why I'm putting him so much better. LU isn't going to get better, unless he changes a lot of his game, but I don't think he's athletic enough to do some of the things that's required. Swayman is a much better goalie as a rookie, with ample opportunity to grow; than LU is at his prime. As far as the shootout goes? Igor is one of the top 3 goalies on the planet right now. So, I don't think that's fair to Swayman to throw that out there. I *might* agree with you, but I need a lot bigger sample size. Oh and Ullmark, he's a backup goalie end of story, not a starting goalie (and I'm not saying Swayman is the clear cut starter at this time).
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Post by badhabitude on Feb 16, 2022 23:38:33 GMT
"Ullmark has had 5 seasons in the NHL including this one. And 3 partial NHL seasons.Swayman has had 2 partial NHL seasons." Then the OP needs to change the title of the thread. Already Swayman doesn't have to beat playoff teams, SV% against good teams doesn't count and the won loss record isn't starting from the beginning of season. Any more goal post moving coming up ? This thread truly isn't one goalie versus another goalie. ? But the title of the thread is literally "Swayman V Ullmark" (Swayman Versus Ullmark) And - I don't believe I'm doing that, I am evaluating each goaler based on their merits and career maturity, not taking the opposing team into consideration. And I never mentioned sv%.
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Post by sandogbrewin on Feb 17, 2022 0:12:55 GMT
"Ullmark has had 5 seasons in the NHL including this one. And 3 partial NHL seasons.Swayman has had 2 partial NHL seasons." Then the OP needs to change the title of the thread. Already Swayman doesn't have to beat playoff teams, SV% against good teams doesn't count and the won loss record isn't starting from the beginning of season. Any more goal post moving coming up ? This thread truly isn't one goalie versus another goalie. ? But the title of the thread is literally "Swayman V Ullmark" (Swayman Versus Ullmark) And - I don't believe I'm doing that, I am evaluating each goaler based on their merits and career maturity, not taking the opposing team into consideration. And I never mentioned sv%. Good you'll communicate perfectly on this thread. And thanks acknowledging that my points went straight over your head.
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Post by badhabitude on Feb 17, 2022 0:22:25 GMT
? But the title of the thread is literally "Swayman V Ullmark" (Swayman Versus Ullmark) And - I don't believe I'm doing that, I am evaluating each goaler based on their merits and career maturity, not taking the opposing team into consideration. And I never mentioned sv%. Good you'll communicate perfectly on this thread. And thanks acknowledging that my points went straight over your head. No, my points went over your head. And - I know you are, but what am I? Intellectual debate at the highest level going on here.
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Post by sandogbrewin on Feb 17, 2022 0:50:12 GMT
Good you'll communicate perfectly on this thread. And thanks acknowledging that my points went straight over your head. No, my points went over your head. And - I know you are, but what am I? Intellectual debate at the highest level going on here. This isn't a true goalie A vs goalie B thread. But please feel free to participate.
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Post by dannycater on Feb 17, 2022 1:48:11 GMT
Good you'll communicate perfectly on this thread. And thanks acknowledging that my points went straight over your head. No, my points went over your head. And - I know you are, but what am I? Intellectual debate at the highest level going on here. Intellectual debate....sorry, that's the next room down.
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Post by stevegm on Feb 17, 2022 3:06:18 GMT
No, my points went over your head. And - I know you are, but what am I? Intellectual debate at the highest level going on here. Intellectual debate....sorry, that's the next room down. "Swayman V Ullmark" really isn't that intellectual is it??? Whose head could that possibly go "straight over"....other than the guy who said it?
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Post by nitelite on Feb 17, 2022 3:36:35 GMT
Finding bad things. Like what for example? He still has a lot to learn, but he's still going in an upward trajectory. Bad rebound control in the game (mistake) Zibanejab just totally faked him out - that one I wouldn't call a mental error, he just got smoked by a really good move. On both the Panarin goal and the shootout winner he overcommitted to the point where he couldn't move, he was in a complete split, skate well short of the goal line. (mistake) I hadn't noticed those things before, only the overcommittal in this game was repeated and only in this game. I'm NOT saying these mistakes are cumulative, he seems to "fix" them by the next game, but then new mistakes. I'm not sure if its an upward trajectory or maybe there is one or more common element I haven't noticed yet. OK- I will say that considering that Swayman says he likes shootouts, he hasn't been all that impressive in them, but again, give him some more time against more & more NHL shooters & he'll get better. Zin's goal was just a disgusting move & he'd beat 90% of the NHL goalies. The other 2 I agree with. The problem was to me was he didn't come back fast enough, or far enough. Pan's goal was a poke check away of being stopped. If someone is coming in that slowly seize the momentum from the shooter. It seems to me, he needs to work on figuring out how to match the speed of the shooter. If he could've gotten himself back quicker & split across both post instead of getting caught too far out he could've had that last one. Even on the ones he stopped there was room to go around him.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 17, 2022 5:07:03 GMT
I think its fair to consider everything if you are going to compare goaltenders. Its fair to say Swayman has had the easier assignments overall, which is a reason I don’t get too jacked up about his stats. He played well against a tough team last night, but gave up a poor goal to tie, got away with a couple other flubs and looked bad in the shootout at times. The guy down the other end looked far better because he is, but looked even better playing against the hapless Bs, especially in that embarrassing SO.
Its also fair to acknowledge that Swayman is a kid with about a season under his belt. So its fair to assume he has a lot of room for improvement. Historically, goalies get better as they mature, except for the ones that do not continue to improve and the league simply figure them out. Thats up to Sway. I think Badhab pointed out the measurable improvements Rask made to his game over the years, working on weaknesses. Thats what you want from a guy.
The point is valid that Sway seems to make different mistakes on different nights. I think that means he doesnt have glaring problems to button up, but he gets caught in different situations in different games because he’s a kid. He’s green, he’s got stuff to work on. That’s why I felt that all the drama over him going to Providence was silly… he would have been fine simply working on his game there for a stint.
That said, I think today, Sway is still the better goaltender. He’s a work in progress, he’s got huge upside and he’s not 15 shutouts in his rookie year Tony Esposito. He’s not dragging the Bruins into the third round of the playoffs himself. What he is, is “better than Linus Ullmark.”
Linus is an established pro who’s had time to get over the Buffalo Experience. I don’t know if Buffalo ruined him, but he’s not getting any better. He’s simply not demonstrated the technique thats a basis of a strong, upper-level NHL goaltender. He doesnt track the puck around the net well, gives up long wrist shots that he sees, cannot explode from post to post, never seems to know where he wants to be and takes himself out of the play like a beached whale. He’s huge, a good enough athlete to stop enough shots to get by, but he’s essentially a big Halak who plays like Anton Khudobin… with fewer saves. He’s a backup goalie and thats all he’ll ever be.
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Post by MrHulot on Feb 17, 2022 12:00:31 GMT
Interesting that we're debating shootout performances now.
I still remember the "good old days" with KFClaude behind the bench when the Bruins would win maybe 2 shootouts per season max (IMHO mainly because KFClaude had absolutely no idea whom he should pick as shooters). And nobody around here even wanted to talk about it.
The shootout is what it is, some kind of skills competition, but - again IMHO - still fairer than i.e. a coin toss. And it won't go away anytime soon.
Swayman is a young goalie, with - again IMHO - a lot more talent than Ullmark. He will be much better, especially in a shootout, when he has more games under his belt. (But I think this has been posted here before, right?)
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Post by davinator on Feb 17, 2022 16:42:42 GMT
No, my points went over your head. And - I know you are, but what am I? Intellectual debate at the highest level going on here. Intellectual debate....sorry, that's the next room down. Sometimes that's what it is like in here... Monty Python Argument Sketch
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Post by islamorada on Feb 17, 2022 17:03:06 GMT
Interesting that we're debating shootout performances now.
I still remember the "good old days" with KFClaude behind the bench when the Bruins would win maybe 2 shootouts per season max (IMHO mainly because KFClaude had absolutely no idea whom he should pick as shooters). And nobody around here even wanted to talk about it.
The shootout is what it is, some kind of skills competition, but - again IMHO - still fairer than i.e. a coin toss. And it won't go away anytime soon.
Swayman is a young goalie, with - again IMHO - a lot more talent than Ullmark. He will be much better, especially in a shootout, when he has more games under his belt. (But I think this has been posted here before, right?)
I was thinking the same after regulation time against the Strangers. CJ would be proud to get a point. Shootouts? It was all gravy after the point. Funny that is the mindset this year in the Bs division. I'm with you on Swayman.
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Post by 50belowzero on Feb 17, 2022 18:37:45 GMT
Swaymark or Ullman, take your pick. Liv Ullman? I know who Bob would take!
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Post by mdsizzle on Feb 18, 2022 12:22:47 GMT
Swayman 2
Linus -2
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Post by chappy28 on Feb 18, 2022 15:44:57 GMT
I think we should add a poll to this thread to track the changing sentiment of the group over time.....is it too late?
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Post by Deleted on Feb 18, 2022 17:12:09 GMT
I think we should add a poll to this thread to track the changing sentiment of the group over time.....is it too late? What’s changed? Ullmark is a mediocre overexposed backup and Sway is a nice young buck who’s not ready for prime time. Put either out there on a team that’s dealing with a closed window, no grit, leadership or scoring skill and a precipitous plummet in the league’s rankings and either could have a bad night on any given game day.
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Post by sandogbrewin on Feb 18, 2022 17:18:49 GMT
I think we should add a poll to this thread to track the changing sentiment of the group over time.....is it too late? Sure as long one of the poll questions refers to this thread as...rigged, slanted and the goal posts have been moved more than once.
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Post by dannycater on Feb 18, 2022 17:27:30 GMT
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Post by chappy28 on Feb 18, 2022 17:33:33 GMT
I think we should add a poll to this thread to track the changing sentiment of the group over time.....is it too late? What’s changed? Ullmark is a mediocre overexposed backup and Sway is a nice young buck who’s not ready for prime time. Put either out there on a team that’s dealing with a closed window, no grit, leadership or scoring skill and a precipitous plummet in the league’s rankings and either could have a bad night on any given game day. My prediction is that it starts as a 50/50 split and Swayman is up 60/40 by the playoffs.......and then Bruce will tap Ulmark as our playoff goalie
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