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Post by thanx4memORRies on Jan 22, 2023 18:22:46 GMT
I was just thinking about this scenario. If it makes sense for anyone to overpay for Horvat, it probably makes sense for the Bruins. Given that their current #1 and #2 centers could both decide to retire in 5 months. Horvat would at least be a guy you can use a lot longer than this spring. I'm not sure how the cap numbers would work, but maybe losing a Debrusk makes that work. It's tough to chip away at that secondary scoring going into the playoffs though. I would prefer prospects and picks, I guess, even with Vancouver probably demanding a proven commodity to make it work. I think the price will be almost unbearably high, with other teams bidding, who may have a deeper farm system. I'm guessing Lohrei's name comes up and I think you have to fight that off, if possible. I wonder if Poitras or Harrison ends up in that package. Would you trade Lysell, Harrison, Smith and the 2023 1st for Horvat, if you could make the cap work? Probably. The issue, though, is ice time for Horvat. In that scenario, you're going to lose something from Debrusk and likely bump him to the third line and play Horvat on Bergeron's RW. DeBrusk is better than Freddy, for sure, but it won't be as big an uptick as we might think. It's possible that Horvat's main vakue to them this year is position insurance - he can step into a top six C role and minimize the impact of 37 or 46 going down for a stretch. Otherwise, i don't think he improves RW1 more than a few goals. The timing sucks to get Horvat. I don't care about next year roght now. I bet if any deal is made for Horvat that Jakey’s going the other way…. B’S need to unload some salary to make it work and Rutherford’s said that he wants more than just futures….
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Post by mdsizzle on Jan 22, 2023 23:06:42 GMT
Probably. The issue, though, is ice time for Horvat. In that scenario, you're going to lose something from Debrusk and likely bump him to the third line and play Horvat on Bergeron's RW. DeBrusk is better than Freddy, for sure, but it won't be as big an uptick as we might think. It's possible that Horvat's main vakue to them this year is position insurance - he can step into a top six C role and minimize the impact of 37 or 46 going down for a stretch. Otherwise, i don't think he improves RW1 more than a few goals. The timing sucks to get Horvat. I don't care about next year roght now. I bet if any deal is made for Horvat that Jakey’s going the other way…. B’S need to unload some salary to make it work and Rutherford’s said that he wants more than just futures…. Sort of makes sense all around. Salary and talentwise and value going the other direction. B's obviously need a C possibly as soon as next year and Jake's absence should really be filled by Hall who shouldn't by all rights be a bottom 6 guy. With his salary, history, everything... Or maybe they find a way to keep all 3 centers in top 6? Has Bo ever played wing?
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Post by 50belowzero on Jan 23, 2023 5:44:44 GMT
It's one of those things though that a trade of a roster player right now could updet the applecart, which is code for chemistry. The B's are 37-5-4, let that sink in and tell me what the B's really need. I wouldn't mind Horvat but maybe he's a summer UFA pickup. There will be guys that will be available for trade that will come alot cheaper and will provide even more depth.
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Post by bookboy007 on Jan 23, 2023 12:35:50 GMT
It's one of those things though that a trade of a roster player right now could updet the applecart, which is code for chemistry. The B's are 37-5-4, let that sink in and tell me what the B's really need. I wouldn't mind Horvat but maybe he's a summer UFA pickup. There will be guys that will be available for trade that will come alot cheaper and will provide even more depth. Next year can't even be a consideration right now. I want them to finish this the way they started. All in this year. The centre gap has been a subject of conversation for what, close to a decade? And here are the two centres still leading the top team in the NHL. So yeah, upsetting the chemistry becauae you'll need Horvat in fiturr years and on paper he's an upgrade on what you probably send back is a risk i might avoid .
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Post by stevegm on Jan 23, 2023 12:55:44 GMT
the best teams are probably going to improve substantially. there appear to be a lot of good players available, and you can bet some impact deals will be made. it may be a good time to step back from the party, that is the regular season, and ponder some of the scenarios. bringing in player x, so Toronto or Tampa doesn't, is also part of the equation.
today...standing pat sure seems like a good idea. I'm not sure moving forward stuck on that attitude...is wise. Nobody on a contender wants moved to a pretender. Nobody on a contender wants minutes reduced because of a rental. But it's reality every year. Every year. Chemistry is a consideration, It's far from "the" consideration.
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Post by chappy28 on Jan 23, 2023 14:23:34 GMT
the best teams are probably going to improve substantially. there appear to be a lot of good players available, and you can bet some impact deals will be made. it may be a good time to step back from the party, that is the regular season, and ponder some of the scenarios. bringing in player x, so Toronto or Tampa doesn't, is also part of the equation. today...standing pat sure seems like a good idea. I'm not sure moving forward stuck on that attitude...is wise. Nobody on a contender wants moved to a pretender. Nobody on a contender wants minutes reduced because of a rental. But it's reality every year. Every year. Chemistry is a consideration, It's far from "the" consideration. Valid point. BUT, when you are THIS freaking good, there's an argument to be made that continuing the chemistry of this group is THE most important consideration because the team clearly has the talent to beat anybody. The most talented team does not always win. In fact, I'd say the overall talent level isn't even in the top 5 factors of predicting the cup winning team. How well a team plays TOGETHER is a much bigger factor (to go along with puck luck, health of key players, goaltending, power play, etc.). In general, I don't buy the argument that you sell the farm and disrupt your historically good team and extremely tight knit locker room based on being worried about what lesser teams might do to try to get better. You worry about your own team, and your own game. If a move doesn't make your team directly better, then why in the world would you do it? Horvat wouldn't crack PP1 here, so how does that help us? We already have the best trigger man in the league, the best bumper in the league, and the other half wall with a legit MVP candidate in Marchand. He's not supplanting either of our top two centers, so we wouldn't even play him with top talent. We could of course play him out of position, but as somebody mentioned that likely means Debrusk is gone so that's a marginal upgrade at wing, with a big risk of upsetting the chemistry of the room and potentially negating that upgrade. Outside of a Bergy and/or DK injury, there really aren't many scenarios where I think Horvat puts us over the top. Our team is stacked as it is, and the chemistry in the room is a thing of beauty. Ride the horses that got you this far. No free rides on the team of destiny
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Post by thanx4memORRies on Jan 23, 2023 14:43:39 GMT
It's one of those things though that a trade of a roster player right now could updet the applecart, which is code for chemistry. The B's are 37-5-4, let that sink in and tell me what the B's really need. I wouldn't mind Horvat but maybe he's a summer UFA pickup. There will be guys that will be available for trade that will come alot cheaper and will provide even more depth. Next year can't even be a consideration right now. I want them to finish this the way they started. All in this year. The centre gap has been a subject of conversation for what, close to a decade? And here are the two centres still leading the top team in the NHL. So yeah, upsetting the chemistry becauae you'll need Horvat in fiturr years and on paper he's an upgrade on what you probably send back is a risk i might avoid . A great regular season doesn’t always lead to a parade in June…. And that decade-long (?) center debate won’t be debated for much longer…. Bergy and Krejci aren’t immortal…. Highly doubt that removing Jakey will derail this team…. And imo, Horvat’s a better player than Jakey on more than just paper….
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Post by Lord Markwart on Jan 23, 2023 15:29:11 GMT
You know…as much as I love this current team and the idea of a longer term center in Horvat to take over for PB and/or DK, I would love to see THIS team win it all. Therefore, the move that the Bruins need to consider is to trade either Jack or Brick or Both for KTapps. Sophie is having a career year and has been unstoppable as of late, but really needs more support than these aging old men.
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Post by sandogbrewin on Jan 23, 2023 15:44:44 GMT
Next year can't even be a consideration right now. I want them to finish this the way they started. All in this year. The centre gap has been a subject of conversation for what, close to a decade? And here are the two centres still leading the top team in the NHL. So yeah, upsetting the chemistry becauae you'll need Horvat in fiturr years and on paper he's an upgrade on what you probably send back is a risk i might avoid . A great regular season doesn’t always lead to a parade in June…. And that decade-long (?) center debate won’t be debated for much longer…. Bergy and Krejci aren’t immortal…. Highly doubt that removing Jakey will derail this team…. And imo, Horvat’s a better player than Jakey on more than just paper…. Jake DeBrusk not on the Bruins during the playoffs, without a suitable replacement, would be a big loss.
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Post by kelvana33 on Jan 23, 2023 16:01:50 GMT
I would add a veteran d-man, like Gudbranson and veteran forward like Parise. I would not stand pat, and I would not shake it up. Injuries from now until deadline will probably be biggest factor in what they do.
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Post by chappy28 on Jan 23, 2023 16:29:18 GMT
I would add a veteran d-man, like Gudbranson and veteran forward like Parise. I would not stand pat, and I would not shake it up. Injuries from now until deadline will probably be biggest factor in what they do. I think even the "stand pat" crew, wants and expects us to make depth moves. Depth being the key word. Pretty much every single guy on the roster except Smith has earned their keep. Even Smith is a great option to have as 13th forward. I'd like to see Zboril get some reps and figure out where his game is at these days. He can look pretty solid at times. Zboril playing well is also a great option to have for 13th forward. Zboril fighting his shadow is less great however. First priority should be depth defenseman IMO, after that versatile veteran winger. I like the Parise call. I also like Lucic. Again, I'm not really looking to bump anyone out of their spots unless we're talking about upgrading 4th liners. I'd even have a hard time sitting Cliffy, Gryz, or Forbert for a deadline pickup. If it ain't broke, don't fix it
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Post by thanx4memORRies on Jan 23, 2023 16:47:14 GMT
A great regular season doesn’t always lead to a parade in June…. And that decade-long (?) center debate won’t be debated for much longer…. Bergy and Krejci aren’t immortal…. Highly doubt that removing Jakey will derail this team…. And imo, Horvat’s a better player than Jakey on more than just paper…. Jake DeBrusk not on the Bruins during the playoffs, without a suitable replacement, would be a big loss. Maybe Jakey’s loss would be more apparent if the B’S only had to play the Laffs in the playoffs…. Don’t remember him much versus other teams…. Pretty sure this B’S squad would still be able to score enough without Jakey, they haven’t lost a step since he’s been out…. Also think Horvat brings a more complete game than Jakey and in the playoffs that’s needed even more…. Of course, this deal would need to be contingent on Horvat getting signed….
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Post by sandogbrewin on Jan 23, 2023 17:01:13 GMT
This year has been a different DeBrusk. Now I'm not saying I wouldn't include him in a deal for Horvat but Jake has been impressive. I would want something more than Smith filling in during the playoffs if DeBrusk were out. To me the 1st line has not been S impressive without Jake.
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Post by bookboy007 on Jan 23, 2023 17:52:54 GMT
Next year can't even be a consideration right now. I want them to finish this the way they started. All in this year. The centre gap has been a subject of conversation for what, close to a decade? And here are the two centres still leading the top team in the NHL. So yeah, upsetting the chemistry becauae you'll need Horvat in fiturr years and on paper he's an upgrade on what you probably send back is a risk i might avoid . A great regular season doesn’t always lead to a parade in June…. And that decade-long (?) center debate won’t be debated for much longer…. Bergy and Krejci aren’t immortal…. Highly doubt that removing Jakey will derail this team…. And imo, Horvat’s a better player than Jakey on more than just paper…. The problem is we don't know how quickly Bo will fit into Jake's role if you swap JDB out and put Bo in. Sure, he's better. But he's also different. He doesn't have DeBrusk's speed. He gets a lot of his goals playing a very similar role to Bergeron in the offensive zone. He is outscoring JDB by about 23% but he plays about 25% more minutes. A chunk of his value is his FO% at 56.1% - good for third on the Bruins among their regular centres, and he's not likely to play C much this year. We've seen in very recent memory the difficulty of players coming to Boston and learning their positions, the system, and still producing like they did elsewhere. There's no guarantee. I agree about a great regular season not guaranteeing anything, but when you are this dominant for more than half a season, I don't see how you try to fix what ain't broke when there are all sorts of other question marks for next season that suggest you're probably starting in a 35% weaker position - maybe more. And that's if you get Horvat.
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Post by thanx4memORRies on Jan 23, 2023 18:05:38 GMT
This year has been a different DeBrusk. Now I'm not saying I wouldn't include him in a deal for Horvat but Jake has been impressive. I would want something more than Smith filling in during the playoffs if DeBrusk were out. To me the 1st line has not been S impressive without Jake. B’S are winning games by more than just a goal or two…. Not worried that Hall can replace Jakey adequately…. And Horvat makes that third line even better….
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Post by thanx4memORRies on Jan 23, 2023 18:21:20 GMT
A great regular season doesn’t always lead to a parade in June…. And that decade-long (?) center debate won’t be debated for much longer…. Bergy and Krejci aren’t immortal…. Highly doubt that removing Jakey will derail this team…. And imo, Horvat’s a better player than Jakey on more than just paper…. The problem is we don't know how quickly Bo will fit into Jake's role if you swap JDB out and put Bo in. Sure, he's better. But he's also different. He doesn't have DeBrusk's speed. He gets a lot of his goals playing a very similar role to Bergeron in the offensive zone. He is outscoring JDB by about 23% but he plays about 25% more minutes. A chunk of his value is his FO% at 56.1% - good for third on the Bruins among their regular centres, and he's not likely to play C much this year. We've seen in very recent memory the difficulty of players coming to Boston and learning their positions, the system, and still producing like they did elsewhere. There's no guarantee. I agree about a great regular season not guaranteeing anything, but when you are this dominant for more than half a season, I don't see how you try to fix what ain't broke when there are all sorts of other question marks for next season that suggest you're probably starting in a 35% weaker position - maybe more. And that's if you get Horvat. Isn’t it always risky bringing in a new player and hoping he fits in? I just find you try putting the best team on the ice and see what happens…. It’s not as if the B’S would be moving one of their top players….
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Post by asmaha on Jan 23, 2023 19:03:28 GMT
Jakey also "only" makes $4mil next year. If the Bruins are serious about re-signing Pasta, they'll need the production and skill #74 brings at that price tag. Bringing in Horvat will cost considerably more against the cap and then what do you have left?
Nah....go for depth this year and hope either Bergeron or Krejci give it one more go. There's no indication they've lost a step. That way, the window is still wide open this year and next. Worry about 2024-2025 another day and another time, when ideally a few cheap ELCs are part of the equation. Get creative down the road...looking at FAs such as Scheifele, Lindholm #2 from CGY, Roslovic from Lumbus, Stephenson out of Vegas. Tier 2 guys.
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Post by sandogbrewin on Jan 23, 2023 19:35:21 GMT
This year has been a different DeBrusk. Now I'm not saying I wouldn't include him in a deal for Horvat but Jake has been impressive. I would want something more than Smith filling in during the playoffs if DeBrusk were out. To me the 1st line has not been S impressive without Jake. B’S are winning games by more than just a goal or two…. Not worried that Hall can replace Jakey adequately…. And Horvat makes that third line even better…. I would love to see a Horvat trade work out somehow. But I also think DeBrusk has been a noticeable loss.
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Post by 50belowzero on Jan 23, 2023 19:58:43 GMT
What's wrong with the top 3 lines as constituted and healthy? I say nothing, the top 2 lines are great and the 3rd line is a very tough matchup for any team the B's face. I'm on the 'bring in some depth' side of things, a D and a fwd.
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Post by thanx4memORRies on Jan 23, 2023 20:13:18 GMT
Jakey also "only" makes $4mil next year. If the Bruins are serious about re-signing Pasta, they'll need the production and skill #74 brings at that price tag. Bringing in Horvat will cost considerably more against the cap and then what do you have left? Nah....go for depth this year and hope either Bergeron or Krejci give it one more go. There's no indication they've lost a step. That way, the window is still wide open this year and next. Worry about 2024-2025 another day and another time, when ideally a few cheap ELCs are part of the equation. Get creative down the road...looking at FAs such as Scheifele, Lindholm #2 from CGY, Roslovic from Lumbus, Stephenson out of Vegas. Tier 2 guys. On what planet is Scheifele a tier 2 guy….
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Post by mdsizzle on Jan 23, 2023 20:26:23 GMT
B’S are winning games by more than just a goal or two…. Not worried that Hall can replace Jakey adequately…. And Horvat makes that third line even better…. I would love to see a Horvat trade work out somehow. But I also think DeBrusk has been a noticeable loss. That may only be because of his current replacement.
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Post by sandogbrewin on Jan 23, 2023 20:53:01 GMT
What's wrong with the top 3 lines as constituted and healthy? I say nothing, the top 2 lines are great and the 3rd line is a very tough matchup for any team the B's face. I'm on the 'bring in some depth' side of things, a D and a fwd. Depth is awesome and more than likely what will happen. But if Horvat can be had. Then it needs to be pursued.
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Post by thanx4memORRies on Jan 23, 2023 21:18:43 GMT
What's wrong with the top 3 lines as constituted and healthy? I say nothing, the top 2 lines are great and the 3rd line is a very tough matchup for any team the B's face. I'm on the 'bring in some depth' side of things, a D and a fwd. Depth is awesome and more than likely what will happen. But if Horvat can be had. Then it needs to be pursued. Bergy-Marchy-Hall Krejci-Pasta-Zacha Horvat-Coyle-Freddy I’d go to war with that….
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Post by bookboy007 on Jan 23, 2023 21:41:43 GMT
This year has been a different DeBrusk. Now I'm not saying I wouldn't include him in a deal for Horvat but Jake has been impressive. I would want something more than Smith filling in during the playoffs if DeBrusk were out. To me the 1st line has not been S impressive without Jake. B’S are winning games by more than just a goal or two…. Not worried that Hall can replace Jakey adequately…. And Horvat makes that third line even better…. Against fringe playoff teams, they are. Against the Leafs, it was touch and go until late in the third. And while we're at it...I'm going to ring that caution bell again about Horvat having a massive career year. From 2015-16 to last year, Horvat was a 0.68 points/game scorer. That was averaging 19:09 per game. Under Bruce Boudreau, he's a 0.97 points/game scorer; 0.62 under all other Canucks coaches. Even with his mega slump and issues, DeBrusk is a 0.55 player for his whole career prior to this year; he's 0.83 this year, and outside of "The Slump", he was a consistent 0.62 for the better part of three years. If you don't think there are warning flags on acquiring Horvat, then I don't think you're looking at the full picture.
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Post by bookboy007 on Jan 23, 2023 21:51:46 GMT
The problem is we don't know how quickly Bo will fit into Jake's role if you swap JDB out and put Bo in. Sure, he's better. But he's also different. He doesn't have DeBrusk's speed. He gets a lot of his goals playing a very similar role to Bergeron in the offensive zone. He is outscoring JDB by about 23% but he plays about 25% more minutes. A chunk of his value is his FO% at 56.1% - good for third on the Bruins among their regular centres, and he's not likely to play C much this year. We've seen in very recent memory the difficulty of players coming to Boston and learning their positions, the system, and still producing like they did elsewhere. There's no guarantee. I agree about a great regular season not guaranteeing anything, but when you are this dominant for more than half a season, I don't see how you try to fix what ain't broke when there are all sorts of other question marks for next season that suggest you're probably starting in a 35% weaker position - maybe more. And that's if you get Horvat. Isn’t it always risky bringing in a new player and hoping he fits in? I just find you try putting the best team on the ice and see what happens…. It’s not as if the B’S would be moving one of their top players…. Yes. It is always risky bringing in a new player. That's my point. I think the reward in this case may not be high enough to justify the risk. You have to consider that Horvat a) likely isn't going to play C on this team, or if he does, he might be the 3C; b) he is going to play about 4 minutes fewer per game; c) he probably would be down low on the PP1 and not in the bumper, so not in the spot that has helped him score 11PPG; d) not playing under loosey goosey Brucie but learning a new system that other players have been slow to adjust to and find their scoring touch. That's a lot of risk that even if the chemistry's right suggests you can't necessarily expect Horvat to produce the way he is in Vancouver if he goes to Boston. DeBrusk is the Bergeron line RW, the #2RW on the team, the 4th leading points/game forward (ahead of Bergeron), second on the team in ES goals, and their top shootout performer. That's one of their top players. He's also $4M a season, which means his value for what he's been contributing is ridiculous.
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