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Post by islamorada on Nov 10, 2016 16:34:34 GMT
Here is the problem with thinking automation or robotics destroys manufacturing, how do other countries manufacture? The answer is automation and robotics. So let us drop the vision of a little Asian soldering circuitry. The problem is China is no longer in the 1980s, the US is!
I have learned that the pollsters failed to calculate in the influence of social networking on the polls. Twitter and FB followers account for the errors. The Trump election team did better than expected. Social networks work for either party, the Democrats failed.
Stop the growth of the federal bureaucracy. Jobs created should be in the public sector.
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Post by jmwalters on Nov 10, 2016 16:58:29 GMT
Here is the problem with thinking automation or robotics destroys manufacturing, how do other countries manufacture? The answer is automation and robotics. So let us drop the vision of a little Asian soldering circuitry. The problem is China is no longer in the 1980s, the US is! I have learned that the pollsters failed to calculate in the influence of social networking on the polls. Twitter and FB followers account for the errors. The Trump election team did better than expected. Social networks work for either party, the Democrats failed. Stop the growth of the federal bureaucracy. Jobs created should be in the public sector. Yes the Chinese are automated but the reason they do it cheaper is because they have a whole population of slave labourers. Is that what you want? A whole industry of workers in the U.S. that make $3 an hour? I mean yes they will be employed but is that the template you want to follow? If not then you can slap massive tariffs on imports (meaning huge trade wars with other nations by the way) and subsidize local industry so workers can make a comparatively living wage.....but once you do that inflation will eat whatever newfound purchasing power you will gain. Manufacturing is not a growth industry. The solution is cultivating new industries or expanding quality education access to the many so they can enter the workforce as high skill labourers for growth industries (service sector). Also, under Obama 98% of job growth has been in the private sector (over 15 million new private sector jobs). The only public sector industry that has seen consistent job growth has been the armed forces....and guess which new president wants to expand this industry exponentially?
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Post by kelvana33 on Nov 10, 2016 17:14:08 GMT
I disagree, this was middle class America tired of working hard and getting bent over the rails. Sick of seeing people coming to this country and abusing the system. Working our tails off to provide for our families while the section 8 people get free/discounted housing, have big TV's and their $35,000 cars parked outside of their affordable housing complexes.
We have spoken.
Ok, so name 5 policy initiatives Trump has offered that will increase the wealth of the middle-class. I shall await diligently.... I cannot name 5 policies he has that will increase the wealth of the middle class.
But I do think it will help jobs and the economy when he says he will close the boarders,bring jobs back that had left, lower health care costs etc..
He had me at "Make America Great Again" and when he said, "You see those gang bangers, most likely here illegally, when I'm in I'm going to ship them out so fast their head will spin"...I think statements like that really rang a bell with the middle class. Now will he do it? I don't know. But at least someone was acknowledging the problems that ail this country. We see our neighborhoods effected by the opioid epidemic, and Trump is saying he's going to build a wall to help keep out the high volume of drugs and drug dealers that enter the country illegally every day. That rang a bell with us. People are sick of it, and Hillary stating that she wanted to be a country that opened their arms for the rest of the world sounded like someone who was out of touch with the problems that ail the countries middle class neighborhoods.
I also think there are some people who didn't so much vote for Trump as they did against Hillary.
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Post by jmwalters on Nov 10, 2016 17:16:28 GMT
Ok, so name 5 policy initiatives Trump has offered that will increase the wealth of the middle-class. I shall await diligently....
I also think there are some people who didn't so much vote for Trump as they did against Hillary.
Here we can agree. According to the exit polls (I posted it to Sandog somewhere in this thread) of those that pulled the lever for trump, only 42% did so for him....the rest did it as a vote against Clinton.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 10, 2016 17:35:08 GMT
Here is the problem with thinking automation or robotics destroys manufacturing, how do other countries manufacture? The answer is automation and robotics. So let us drop the vision of a little Asian soldering circuitry. The problem is China is no longer in the 1980s, the US is! I have learned that the pollsters failed to calculate in the influence of social networking on the polls. Twitter and FB followers account for the errors. The Trump election team did better than expected. Social networks work for either party, the Democrats failed. Stop the growth of the federal bureaucracy. Jobs created should be in the public sector. Yes the Chinese are automated but the reason they do it cheaper is because they have a whole population of slave labourers. Is that what you want? A whole industry of workers in the U.S. that make $3 an hour? I mean yes they will be employed but is that the template you want to follow? If not then you can slap massive tariffs on imports (meaning huge trade wars with other nations by the way) and subsidize local industry so workers can make a comparatively living wage.....but once you do that inflation will eat whatever newfound purchasing power you will gain. Manufacturing is not a growth industry. The solution is cultivating new industries or expanding quality education access to the many so they can enter the workforce as high skill labourers for growth industries (service sector). Also, under Obama 98% of job growth has been in the private sector (over 15 million new private sector jobs). The only public sector industry that has seen consistent job growth has been the armed forces....and guess which new president wants to expand this industry exponentially? You've got it nailed with the first half here, but there's a good chance a high tariff will create demand for American goods. A rosy scenario is some higher prices for a couple of years and then more factories will be opened by entrepreneurs and big business. And if we're going to pursue Keynes on steroids through quantitive easing for Wall Street, I don't see why not for manufacturing. Which is very odd turn for a Conservative...but if the cat is out of he bag with spending, we might as well benefit.
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Post by badhabitude on Nov 10, 2016 17:45:51 GMT
just a quick thought. imo, this thread has been one of the most civil, respectful, shared, thought provoking back and forths, I've ever been a part of here. as a group, why do we have to be so insular when talking hockey? IMO, opinions on hockey are by and large more united than they are about politics. I wish America would agree as closely as this forum does. I like this thread. It's going past the election and might chronicle Trump's presidency, it will be really interesting. We should have term limits for general managers!
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Post by jmwalters on Nov 10, 2016 17:49:21 GMT
Yes the Chinese are automated but the reason they do it cheaper is because they have a whole population of slave labourers. Is that what you want? A whole industry of workers in the U.S. that make $3 an hour? I mean yes they will be employed but is that the template you want to follow? If not then you can slap massive tariffs on imports (meaning huge trade wars with other nations by the way) and subsidize local industry so workers can make a comparatively living wage.....but once you do that inflation will eat whatever newfound purchasing power you will gain. Manufacturing is not a growth industry. The solution is cultivating new industries or expanding quality education access to the many so they can enter the workforce as high skill labourers for growth industries (service sector). Also, under Obama 98% of job growth has been in the private sector (over 15 million new private sector jobs). The only public sector industry that has seen consistent job growth has been the armed forces....and guess which new president wants to expand this industry exponentially? You've got it nailed with the first half here, but there's a good chance a high tariff will create demand for American goods. A rosy scenario is some higher prices for a couple of years and then more factories will be opened by entrepreneurs and big business. And if we're going to pursue Keynes on steroids through quantitive easing for Wall Street, I don't see why not for manufacturing. Which is very odd turn for a Conservative...but if the cat is out of he bag with spending, we might as well benefit. Sorry Henry but you are dreaming if you think it will revitalize the manufacturing industry. This isn't 1950 and you can't live in a bubble.
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Post by badhabitude on Nov 10, 2016 17:54:01 GMT
Ok, so name 5 policy initiatives Trump has offered that will increase the wealth of the middle-class. I shall await diligently.... I cannot name 5 policies he has that will increase the wealth of the middle class.
But I do think it will help jobs and the economy when he says he will close the boarders,bring jobs back that had left, lower health care costs etc..
He had me at "Make America Great Again" and when he said, "You see those gang bangers, most likely here illegally, when I'm in I'm going to ship them out so fast their head will spin"...I think statements like that really rang a bell with the middle class. Now will he do it? I don't know. But at least someone was acknowledging the problems that ail this country. We see our neighborhoods effected by the opioid epidemic, and Trump is saying he's going to build a wall to help keep out the high volume of drugs and drug dealers that enter the country illegally every day. That rang a bell with us. People are sick of it, and Hillary stating that she wanted to be a country that opened their arms for the rest of the world sounded like someone who was out of touch with the problems that ail the countries middle class neighborhoods.
I also think there are some people who didn't so much vote for Trump as they did against Hillary.
We will see how well Trump does for America, I have the comfort of getting my opinions on that subject from my living room. You will be facing it on the front lines. He's said he's going to make it easier to buy guns, to obtain assault style weapons and etc. - you can read that in his first 100 days statement. How many of those weapons are going to end up in the hands of the people you have to deal with? And as a result of his policies, we may see opioide use increase. Maybe or maybe not - but you're going to be on the front lines.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 10, 2016 17:55:48 GMT
You've got it nailed with the first half here, but there's a good chance a high tariff will create demand for American goods. A rosy scenario is some higher prices for a couple of years and then more factories will be opened by entrepreneurs and big business. And if we're going to pursue Keynes on steroids through quantitive easing for Wall Street, I don't see why not for manufacturing. Which is very odd turn for a Conservative...but if the cat is out of he bag with spending, we might as well benefit. Sorry Henry but you are dreaming if you think it will revitalize the manufacturing industry. This isn't 1950 and you can't live in a bubble. So that's it? We've tried nothing and we're already out of ideas? What do you suggest? Why can't we stimulate manufacturers with the same gusto as the big banks. It's not as if we manufacture nothing. But if there is another big boom, it's going to be oil and gas.
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Post by UtahGetMeTwo on Nov 10, 2016 18:17:44 GMT
just a quick thought. imo, this thread has been one of the most civil, respectful, shared, thought provoking back and forths, I've ever been a part of here. as a group, why do we have to be so insular when talking hockey? A really good question. Both emotional but very different types. One is an emotion that can go away quickly, a loss to a rival or a coaching mistake. Unless of course that someone is like Nite. The other has implications that can effect the economy and the world. Very different.
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Post by badhabitude on Nov 10, 2016 18:20:01 GMT
Here is the problem with thinking automation or robotics destroys manufacturing, how do other countries manufacture? The answer is automation and robotics. So let us drop the vision of a little Asian soldering circuitry. The problem is China is no longer in the 1980s, the US is! I have learned that the pollsters failed to calculate in the influence of social networking on the polls. Twitter and FB followers account for the errors. The Trump election team did better than expected. Social networks work for either party, the Democrats failed. Stop the growth of the federal bureaucracy. Jobs created should be in the public sector. Yes the Chinese are automated but the reason they do it cheaper is because they have a whole population of slave labourers. Is that what you want? A whole industry of workers in the U.S. that make $3 an hour? I mean yes they will be employed but is that the template you want to follow? If not then you can slap massive tariffs on imports (meaning huge trade wars with other nations by the way) and subsidize local industry so workers can make a comparatively living wage.....but once you do that inflation will eat whatever newfound purchasing power you will gain. Manufacturing is not a growth industry.
The solution is cultivating new industries or expanding quality education access to the many so they can enter the workforce as high skill labourers for growth industries (service sector).
Also, under Obama 98% of job growth has been in the private sector (over 15 million new private sector jobs). The only public sector industry that has seen consistent job growth has been the armed forces....and guess which new president wants to expand this industry exponentially? You know what fucks up this thread? When people are so focused on their own objectives they don't bother reading or instantly forget what you wrote.
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Post by sportsnut on Nov 10, 2016 21:19:19 GMT
Here is the problem with thinking automation or robotics destroys manufacturing, how do other countries manufacture? The answer is automation and robotics. So let us drop the vision of a little Asian soldering circuitry. The problem is China is no longer in the 1980s, the US is! I have learned that the pollsters failed to calculate in the influence of social networking on the polls. Twitter and FB followers account for the errors. The Trump election team did better than expected. Social networks work for either party, the Democrats failed. Stop the growth of the federal bureaucracy. Jobs created should be in the public sector. Yes the Chinese are automated but the reason they do it cheaper is because they have a whole population of slave labourers. Is that what you want? A whole industry of workers in the U.S. that make $3 an hour? I mean yes they will be employed but is that the template you want to follow? If not then you can slap massive tariffs on imports (meaning huge trade wars with other nations by the way) and subsidize local industry so workers can make a comparatively living wage.....but once you do that inflation will eat whatever newfound purchasing power you will gain. Manufacturing is not a growth industry. The solution is cultivating new industries or expanding quality education access to the many so they can enter the workforce as high skill labourers for growth industries (service sector).Also, under Obama 98% of job growth has been in the private sector (over 15 million new private sector jobs). The only public sector industry that has seen consistent job growth has been the armed forces....and guess which new president wants to expand this industry exponentially? Your second bold is the solution for 1/2 the unemployed workforce, the half that fits into the educational system or has a proclivity for it. There is a huge swath of American's that this doesn't fit so nicely for, black, white, green, whatever. The African-American unemployment rate is 8.8%, double that of the national average. Are you trying to tell me (we have a minimum wage laws) manufacturing jobs aren't a good solution? Built in America, paycheck spent in America is a exactly what the inner-cities need. Work opportunities of any kind are a great vehicle to improve lives.
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Post by walktheline on Nov 10, 2016 21:56:18 GMT
The manufacturing argument is interesting. Easy enough to look up how many jobs have been offshored in the manufacturing sector and it's a lot. However, offshoring has slowed and there has been a recent trend of reshoring of manufacturing and service jobs. Precision manufacturing is not easily sent to China or Mexico and some companies have found out the hard way that the cheap labor is largely offset by the cost to ship materials back and forth not to mention the expense of sending a steady stream of company reps overseas on a regular basis.
Manufacturing is an important part of the US economy and is actually poised for some growth. It's importance is due to the fact that these jobs are now higher skill than what most people understand them to be (and pay damn well) and manufacturing has a high multiplier effect, that is for every buck spent in manufacturing it adds even more to the economy.
Adding manufacturing jobs to the US economy should be a part of any administration's economic plan. It's not an attempt to roll us back to the 20th century or a rah rah go USA vote for me strategy, it's smart economic policy.
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Post by schlich on Nov 10, 2016 22:51:41 GMT
Someone mentioned the opiod crisis:
I dislocated my ankle10 years ago. I snapped it back into position immediately. I went to the doctor to get it x-rayed to determine if there was any damage that needed attention. There wasn't. I told them the pain was bearable with ibuprofen. They proscribed me oxycontin anyway. I used 2 of them 3 months later when I wrenched my back. Threw the other 18 away.
I had knee surgery 5 years ago. They gave me 60 oxy's. I needed them. Used 28. Threw 32 away.
No mexicans were involved. The opioid crisis is a different beast.
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Post by jmwalters on Nov 10, 2016 23:00:18 GMT
Sorry Henry but you are dreaming if you think it will revitalize the manufacturing industry. This isn't 1950 and you can't live in a bubble. So that's it? We've tried nothing and we're already out of ideas? What do you suggest? Why can't we stimulate manufacturers with the same gusto as the big banks. It's not as if we manufacture nothing. But if there is another big boom, it's going to be oil and gas. Actually if there is going to be another big boom it is going to be from new industries (renewables and tech). And maybe the pot industry if it is legalized on a national scale
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Post by jmwalters on Nov 10, 2016 23:07:17 GMT
The manufacturing argument is interesting. Easy enough to look up how many jobs have been offshored in the manufacturing sector and it's a lot. However, offshoring has slowed and there has been a recent trend of reshoring of manufacturing and service jobs. Precision manufacturing is not easily sent to China or Mexico and some companies have found out the hard way that the cheap labor is largely offset by the cost to ship materials back and forth not to mention the expense of sending a steady stream of company reps overseas on a regular basis. Manufacturing is an important part of the US economy and is actually poised for some growth. It's importance is due to the fact that these jobs are now higher skill than what most people understand them to be (and pay damn well) and manufacturing has a high multiplier effect, that is for every buck spent in manufacturing it adds even more to the economy. Adding manufacturing jobs to the US economy should be a part of any administration's economic plan. It's not an attempt to roll us back to the 20th century or a rah rah go USA vote for me strategy, it's smart economic policy. This is a very grounded and solid argument as presented. But it only employs 8.8% of the workforce and 12% of the GDP. So it is not that important on a national level. In comparison it is 33% of China's and 27% of Germany's
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Post by UtahGetMeTwo on Nov 10, 2016 23:17:17 GMT
Yes the Chinese are automated but the reason they do it cheaper is because they have a whole population of slave labourers. Is that what you want? A whole industry of workers in the U.S. that make $3 an hour? I mean yes they will be employed but is that the template you want to follow? If not then you can slap massive tariffs on imports (meaning huge trade wars with other nations by the way) and subsidize local industry so workers can make a comparatively living wage.....but once you do that inflation will eat whatever newfound purchasing power you will gain. Manufacturing is not a growth industry. The solution is cultivating new industries or expanding quality education access to the many so they can enter the workforce as high skill labourers for growth industries (service sector).Also, under Obama 98% of job growth has been in the private sector (over 15 million new private sector jobs). The only public sector industry that has seen consistent job growth has been the armed forces....and guess which new president wants to expand this industry exponentially? Built in America, paycheck spent in America is a exactly what the inner-cities need. Work opportunities of any kind are a great vehicle to improve lives. ^That^ is why the 90s had an economic boom. The Middle class had money in their pockets to spend.
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Post by UtahGetMeTwo on Nov 10, 2016 23:20:35 GMT
I have learned that the pollsters failed to calculate in the influence of social networking on the polls. Twitter and FB followers account for the errors. The Trump election team did better than expected. Social networks work for either party, the Democrats failed. That's how Obama's team help him get in.
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Post by badhabitude on Nov 10, 2016 23:57:06 GMT
Someone mentioned the opiod crisis: I dislocated my ankle10 years ago. I snapped it back into position immediately. I went to the doctor to get it x-rayed to determine if there was any damage that needed attention. There wasn't. I told them the pain was bearable with ibuprofen. They proscribed me oxycontin anyway. I used 2 of them 3 months later when I wrenched my back. Threw the other 18 away. I had knee surgery 5 years ago. They gave me 60 oxy's. I needed them. Used 28. Threw 32 away. No mexicans were involved. The opioid crisis is a different beast. Jon Oliver had something to say about this. 75% of heroine users started with prescription painkillers.
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Post by Fletcher on Nov 11, 2016 0:21:02 GMT
Someone mentioned the opiod crisis: I dislocated my ankle10 years ago. I snapped it back into position immediately. I went to the doctor to get it x-rayed to determine if there was any damage that needed attention. There wasn't. I told them the pain was bearable with ibuprofen. They proscribed me oxycontin anyway. I used 2 of them 3 months later when I wrenched my back. Threw the other 18 away. I had knee surgery 5 years ago. They gave me 60 oxy's. I needed them. Used 28. Threw 32 away. No mexicans were involved. The opioid crisis is a different beast. Absolutely. Pharma are the producers and doctors are the dealers.
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Post by kelvana33 on Nov 11, 2016 1:56:51 GMT
Someone mentioned the opiod crisis: I dislocated my ankle10 years ago. I snapped it back into position immediately. I went to the doctor to get it x-rayed to determine if there was any damage that needed attention. There wasn't. I told them the pain was bearable with ibuprofen. They proscribed me oxycontin anyway. I used 2 of them 3 months later when I wrenched my back. Threw the other 18 away. I had knee surgery 5 years ago. They gave me 60 oxy's. I needed them. Used 28. Threw 32 away. No mexicans were involved. The opioid crisis is a different beast. No doubt that's a percentage of where it comes from. I won't argue that. But a fair amount comes in the country illegally and it isn't just Mexicans bringing it in.
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Post by walktheline on Nov 11, 2016 1:56:55 GMT
This is a very grounded and solid argument as presented. But it only employs 8.8% of the workforce and 12% of the GDP. So it is not that important on a national level. In comparison it is 33% of China's and 27% of Germany's The US economy is the most diverse in the world. Anything that represents roughly 9% of the workforce and 12% of the GDP is huge. Comparing it to less diverse economies is cheating!
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Post by badhabitude on Nov 11, 2016 3:39:06 GMT
And tonight he tweets; Just had a very open and successful presidential election. Now professional protesters, incited by the media, are protesting. Very unfair!
"Professional protesters" - common sense says this is nonsense. "Incited by the media" more nonsense.
So unprofessional. Is it too much to ask he act like an adult now that he's the leader of the free world?
And ONLY for the sake of argument, let's suppose it is true that these are professionals incited by the media (I hate even supposing that because anyone with a grain of intelligence can't believe it), realize you're not a popular president by losing the popular and don't rile people up just for the fuck of it. 4 years of Breitbart tweets coming our way.
Fine. I don't give a shit anymore. Make it illegal to protest, have the national guard shoot at them. Fine. You want a country like this, you got it.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 11, 2016 3:51:32 GMT
And tonight he tweets; Just had a very open and successful presidential election. Now professional protesters, incited by the media, are protesting. Very unfair! "Professional protesters" - common sense says this is nonsense. "Incited by the media" more nonsense. So unprofessional. Is it too much to ask he act like an adult now that he's the leader of the free world? And ONLY for the sake of argument, let's suppose it is true that these are professionals incited by the media (I hate even supposing that because anyone with a grain of intelligence can't believe it), realize you're not a popular president by losing the popular and don't rile people up just for the fuck of it. 4 years of Breitbart tweets coming our way. Fine. I don't give a shit anymore. Make it illegal to protest, have the national guard shoot at them. Fine. You want a country like this, you got it. Sounds good to me.Dont come to Canada we riot over hockey games,Fucking juvenile millennials is all it is.
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Post by kelvana33 on Nov 11, 2016 5:22:55 GMT
And tonight he tweets; Just had a very open and successful presidential election. Now professional protesters, incited by the media, are protesting. Very unfair! "Professional protesters" - common sense says this is nonsense. "Incited by the media" more nonsense. So unprofessional. Is it too much to ask he act like an adult now that he's the leader of the free world? And ONLY for the sake of argument, let's suppose it is true that these are professionals incited by the media (I hate even supposing that because anyone with a grain of intelligence can't believe it), realize you're not a popular president by losing the popular and don't rile people up just for the fuck of it. 4 years of Breitbart tweets coming our way. Fine. I don't give a shit anymore. Make it illegal to protest, have the national guard shoot at them. Fine. You want a country like this, you got it. We had 6 of them block a highway last spring, they're arms were in barrels full of cement. They were mostly from Colorado and one guy told me it's what they do. They go around and stage protests.
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