|
|
Post by bookboy007 on Mar 25, 2024 21:46:34 GMT
How many Senators games did you watch between Chara's departure and Redden's? Who did PC sign and who did Slats sign ? You can try to spin this anyway you want. The results are Redden fell apart. When you take Grzelcyk away from McAvoy he is not sheltered and facking awful. Grzelcyk does nor drive the play and crumbles during the playoffs, two-man aggressive for forchecking. I'm not spinning anything. You're avoiding the facts. Redden was a solid top defenseman on a team that almost made the finals the year Chara left, and had a second good year before he left for the Rangers. You're avoiding this fact because if there's a two year lag, Redden can't have been "sheltered" by Chara entirely. The fact that PC was ABLE to sign Chara because he declined the offer Redden accepted, and that Slats was ABLE to sign Redden and not Chara because at that point Chara was locked up in Boston has nothing to do with this. Your in your Chewbacca living on Endor with the Ewoks Johnny Cochrane logic again. No, Grz doesn't drive the play. Yes, he crumbles against particular teams in the playoffs. Not all. But yes, physical forechecking teams that use a two man aggressive forecheck expose him. Tell me...which Bruins D over the last 15 years has done well against it when done by a good team? Isn't that exactly how the Hawks attached Chara to turn the tide in 2013? But again, I'm not here to argue Grz is a good player in the playoffs. Or that they should re-sign him (though they should think about it if he's $1M). I'm saying his results are incompatible with the view that he's awful and only survives by playing in McAvoy's shadow. And even his playoff failings - some of them spectacular - don't line up with other series where you probably expect him to fail. Take 2019. He played with a bunch of guys including John Moore and young Cliffy. Against Toronto, he had 4 points and was -2 in 7 games. But against the heavy, physical Columbus team that had just taken out the Mighty Bolts, he had a goal and was plus 1 in 6 games. Against Carolina in the sweep, 2 goals and even. All this while playing about 17 min on the third pair and not with McAvoy. And we all remember him getting blowed up against the Blues, but he finished that series -1 in three games with a goal playing 12 min a night. McAvoy was -5 with 1 goal. Pastrnak was -7. Or 2020. Against the Canes in round 1, he was 0-0-0 and even playing over 20 a night. He was a disaster against the Bolts in the second round - but so was literally every Boston defenseman. McAvoy - no points and -3. Carlo and Chara both had 1 assist and were -1. Krug had 3 assists and was -5, and Cliffy was -3. Then in 2021, he actually had a so-so start with 3 points and -2 (team worst) against Washinton in round 1, but despite danny's recollection, he had 1 assist in 6 games, and was even for the series. McAvoy, Lauzon, Reilly and Clifton were all -2 or worse. Only Carlo was a plus. (And incidentally, there's a pattern here. Carlo seems to consistently buck the trend in the playoffs for the Bruins, with a better plus/minus than other D and sometime with more points than you expect from him). But Grz was hardly a trainwreck if you go by his personal metrics. He got killed by Carolina in 2022, and played a minor role in the debacle last year - only 3 games and -1. He's -19 for his career but a huge part of that is two really bad series. For comparison's sake, McAvoy is -1 over the same period of playoff games. But in that same span, Krejci is -8, and over the three seasons after he was the 2019 playoff scoring sensation, Charlie Coyle was -19. Bergeron and Marchand have had seasons to match Grz's -6 (last year, in fact). No one likes to look at how the rest of the team played when roasting Grz. Roast him; he wasn't alone in deserving to get roasted. |
|
|
|
Post by bookboy007 on Mar 25, 2024 21:47:26 GMT
Never mind that the Senators made the Eastern Final in their first post-Chara season with Redden as their #1 in terms of TOI, and third in D scoring behind two offensive specialists. Or that he was again neck and neck with Phillips for tops in TOI and second in points the second year. Sather's miscalculation was that Redden could continue to produce as the league got faster and adjusted to the post-lockout rules. That, and not Chara's absence, exposed the limits of Redden's game. Once he didn't have an advantage in terms of being a little more quick and nimble, he was done as an impact player. Nothing to do with the speed of the game or post-lockout NHL. Redden was never a top-pairing dman. That's just a silly statement. |
|
|
|
Post by sandogbrewin on Mar 25, 2024 21:49:07 GMT
Nothing to do with the speed of the game or post-lockout NHL. Redden was never a top-pairing dman. That's just a silly statement. It isn't but that excuse, speed and the league changed, doesn't mesh nor does it help what happened to Redden. He sucked! |
|
|
|
Post by bookboy007 on Mar 26, 2024 3:11:22 GMT
That's just a silly statement. It isn't but that excuse, speed and the league changed, doesn't mesh nor does it help what happened to Redden. He sucked! His game crashed. It had nothing to do with being sheltered by Chara. |
|
|
|
Post by stevegm on Mar 26, 2024 11:08:26 GMT
when the thread title is GRYZ SUCKS..it's evident very few participants are interested in objectivity.
He DOESN'T.
If he could be re-signed for 2 years, at 2mil per...the Bruins would be brain dead, not to nail him down.
That opportunity probably won't happen.
So he doesn't suck.
I'm also getting bored with the nonsense that every time this team loses, or has a goal scored on them...it's his fault.
|
|
|
|
Post by sandogbrewin on Mar 26, 2024 11:51:44 GMT
It isn't but that excuse, speed and the league changed, doesn't mesh nor does it help what happened to Redden. He sucked! His game crashed. It had nothing to do with being sheltered by Chara. Niether here nor there. Like Grzelcyk, Redden was never a top pairing dman. His time in NY proved that. Grzelcyk once again will get exposed in the playoffs. And he has a history, not in front of distorted eyes, right in front of hockey fans. |
|
|
|
Post by dannycater on Mar 26, 2024 12:05:35 GMT
when the thread title is GRYZ SUCKS..it's evident very few participants are interested in objectivity. He DOESN'T. If he could be re-signed for 2 years, at 2mil per...the Bruins would be brain dead, not to nail him down. That opportunity probably won't happen. So he doesn't suck. I'm also getting bored with the nonsense that every time this team loses, or has a goal scored on them...it's his fault. That's right, double down by defending him and bringing him back for years to come...fold the cards. |
|
|
|
Post by stevegm on Mar 26, 2024 13:19:48 GMT
when the thread title is GRYZ SUCKS..it's evident very few participants are interested in objectivity. He DOESN'T. If he could be re-signed for 2 years, at 2mil per...the Bruins would be brain dead, not to nail him down. That opportunity probably won't happen. So he doesn't suck. I'm also getting bored with the nonsense that every time this team loses, or has a goal scored on them...it's his fault. That's right, double down by defending him and bringing him back for years to come...fold the cards. how is that doubling down? you disagree? i don't think anyone was worse than forbort, his first year here. last year, he was pretty good when healthy. not a big fan of either him or gryz. but it's a cap league. imo gryz would be an asset on a team with deep D, if the price was right. forbort is more generic and replaceable. gryz's ceiling is protected minutes, puck moving..a considerable regular season asset($?) when fobo isn't on his A game, he's suspect. but at half the price???...he's golden. same with the Heinen foolishness. you aren't supposed to look at the player making 775 grand, through the same lense as 2.8 mil. danton heinen is an outstanding hire. there should be zero debate. gryz(fobo) taking the same financial haircut moving forward would be another outstanding hire. i'm not, nor are others, jumping on anyones bandwagon. rather, trying to be objective. when things ramp up...good chance he'll get exposed. his weaknesses are well documented. but those weaknesses are exacerbated, by the fact the B's haven't constructed a Dcorp he fits nicely into at present. he probably won't be the reason, if this team loses a round. this thread seems to have already decided |
|
|
|
Post by dannycater on Mar 26, 2024 13:29:20 GMT
That's right, double down by defending him and bringing him back for years to come...fold the cards. how is that doubling down? you disagree? i don't think anyone was worse than forbort, his first year here. last year, he was pretty good when healthy. not a big fan of either him or gryz. but it's a cap league. imo gryz would be an asset on a team with deep D, if the price was right. forbort is more generic and replaceable. gryz's ceiling is protected minutes, puck moving..a considerable regular season asset($?) when fobo isn't on his A game, he's suspect. but at half the price???...he's golden. same with the Heinen foolishness. you aren't supposed to look at the player making 775 grand, through the same lense as 2.8 mil. danton heinen is an outstanding hire. there should be zero debate. gryz(fobo) taking the same financial haircut moving forward would be another outstanding hire. i'm not, nor are others, jumping on anyones bandwagon. rather, trying to be objective. when things ramp up...good chance he'll get exposed. his weaknesses are well documented. but those weaknesses are exacerbated, by the fact the B's haven't constructed a Dcorp he fits nicely into at present. he probably won't be the reason, if this team loses a round. this thread seems to have already decided He blocks Wotherspoon, Lohrei and Shattenkirk, and whatever you might feel are their weaknesses (and all 3 have some), I feel his presence keeps the B's from having the best 6 for the playoffs. If Gryz was even remotely doing anything to help the offense (he doesn't), I would feel differently, but since he is a defensive liability (well brought up by too many to count on this board alone), he just becomes the guy who blocks the team from having the proper pairings. That he is some good luck charm or whatever he is supposed to be for McAvoy is all that he is. He offers nothing to help this team and his playoff history is a fucking joke. |
|
|
|
Post by stevegm on Mar 26, 2024 13:30:02 GMT
His game crashed. It had nothing to do with being sheltered by Chara. Niether here nor there. Like Grzelcyk, Redden was never a top pairing dman. His time in NY proved that. Grzelcyk once again will get exposed in the playoffs. And he has a history, not in front of distorted eyes, right in front of hockey fans. top pairing is the issue. what does that mean? imo, nothing. to others, it means 2nd best D, and then the train leaves the tracks. if gryz being...top pairing...means he's out there against everyone elses fastest and strongest and meanest and best...that's someone elses fault. I pretty much agree with the bold...but he's on the team...he's gonna have to play some...he'll deserve to play some...he has to be put in situations that can benefit the team, not hurt it. Those situations exist. if they don't, the whole front office should go. it's not like we don't know he can get knocked off the puck when things get heavy. but heavy ebbs and flows throughout a game, and a series. |
|
|
|
Post by stevegm on Mar 26, 2024 13:33:32 GMT
how is that doubling down? you disagree? i don't think anyone was worse than forbort, his first year here. last year, he was pretty good when healthy. not a big fan of either him or gryz. but it's a cap league. imo gryz would be an asset on a team with deep D, if the price was right. forbort is more generic and replaceable. gryz's ceiling is protected minutes, puck moving..a considerable regular season asset($?) when fobo isn't on his A game, he's suspect. but at half the price???...he's golden. same with the Heinen foolishness. you aren't supposed to look at the player making 775 grand, through the same lense as 2.8 mil. danton heinen is an outstanding hire. there should be zero debate. gryz(fobo) taking the same financial haircut moving forward would be another outstanding hire. i'm not, nor are others, jumping on anyones bandwagon. rather, trying to be objective. when things ramp up...good chance he'll get exposed. his weaknesses are well documented. but those weaknesses are exacerbated, by the fact the B's haven't constructed a Dcorp he fits nicely into at present. he probably won't be the reason, if this team loses a round. this thread seems to have already decided He blocks Wotherspoon, Lohrei and Shattenkirk, and whatever you might feel are their weaknesses (and all 3 have some), I feel his presence keeps the B's from having the best 6 for the playoffs. then you need to rethink this. gryz doesn't decide when, if, or how much he plays. he isn't "blocking" anyone. someone else is, if that's how it's going down. I don't think it is. |
|
|
|
Post by dannycater on Mar 26, 2024 13:33:56 GMT
He blocks Wotherspoon, Lohrei and Shattenkirk, and whatever you might feel are their weaknesses (and all 3 have some), I feel his presence keeps the B's from having the best 6 for the playoffs. then you need to rethink this. gryz doesn't decide when, if, or how much he plays. he isn't "blocking" anyone. someone else is, if that's how it's going down. I don't think it is. Right it's the coaching staff and they are wrong. |
|
|
|
Post by sandogbrewin on Mar 26, 2024 13:36:12 GMT
then you need to rethink this. gryz doesn't decide when, if, or how much he plays. he isn't "blocking" anyone. someone else is, if that's how it's going down. I don't think it is. Right it's the coaching staff and they are wrong. No it's Sweeney and dollars to donuts Charlie goes to bat for his college buddy. |
|
|
|
Post by dannycater on Mar 26, 2024 13:40:57 GMT
Right it's the coaching staff and they are wrong. No it's Sweeney and dollars to donuts Charlie goes to bat for his college buddy. No, Monty loves him, he singles him out as "great" and has done this a few times this season. It's his call on playing him at this point. All on him and his staff. Sweeney got Peeke, got Shat, and Lohrei is sticking around....this is on Monty. Wotherspoon has been dicked around for no reason--wish he would give him some of the love. Shat gets a 3-point game, and has tremendous chemistry on the PP and with 88---and he barely can crack lineup. ALL COACHING. |
|
|
|
Post by bookboy007 on Mar 26, 2024 16:02:38 GMT
His game crashed. It had nothing to do with being sheltered by Chara. Niether here nor there. Like Grzelcyk, Redden was never a top pairing dman. His time in NY proved that. Grzelcyk once again will get exposed in the playoffs. And he has a history, not in front of distorted eyes, right in front of hockey fans. So you've spent the last five posts arguing that Redden was exposed when Chara left, then say it's 'neither here nor there' that his game didn't crash until two full years and a change of teams after Chara left? And that if a 32 yr old player loses a step it proves that he was never a top defenseman? Both of those things are why I don't rely on the interpretation of "hockey fans" without corroboration. You've said nothing about Redden's time in Ottawa that suggests you have any credibility about what kind of player he was before Chara left. Nothing about him being Ottawa's number 1 D for several years before they acquired Chara to say he was never a top D. Nothing about the fact that 25 yr old Chara they acquired wasn't the towering force that he became. Just "Redden sucked in NY, so he was never good and it's all because he was sheltered by Chara." Just like this entire conversation on Grz, the point is not that Grz is good in the playoffs; it's the degree of his failings have been greatly exaggerated. Frankly, I find it bizarre how obsessed people are with the guy. It's like he slept with every last Bruin fan's younger sister. I can't figure out why it seems so hard for people to understand that, like a great many players, Grz is a mediocre player who can be used in certain contexts in ways that complement his strengths and minimize his weaknesses, and in a Cap league, it's likely essential that you can do that to keep costs down. It's like people are afraid to admit that he must be doing something right because somehow that would mean they can't also talk about the things he does wrong. Which is crazy. And it means there's no room to appreciate the nuances of a game that is incredibly nuanced. |
|
|
|
Post by bookboy007 on Mar 26, 2024 16:06:06 GMT
when the thread title is GRYZ SUCKS..it's evident very few participants are interested in objectivity. He DOESN'T. If he could be re-signed for 2 years, at 2mil per...the Bruins would be brain dead, not to nail him down. That opportunity probably won't happen. So he doesn't suck. I'm also getting bored with the nonsense that every time this team loses, or has a goal scored on them...it's his fault. Support group meetings are Sundays at 7pm. Card carrying members get 20% pints of Yeungling or Moosehead. |
|
|
|
Post by dannycater on Mar 26, 2024 16:16:52 GMT
when the thread title is GRYZ SUCKS..it's evident very few participants are interested in objectivity. He DOESN'T. If he could be re-signed for 2 years, at 2mil per...the Bruins would be brain dead, not to nail him down. That opportunity probably won't happen. So he doesn't suck. I'm also getting bored with the nonsense that every time this team loses, or has a goal scored on them...it's his fault. Support group meetings are Sundays at 7pm. Card carrying members get 20% pints of Yeungling or Moosehead. Loudermilk's meeting at the church. |
|
|
|
Post by bookboy007 on Mar 26, 2024 16:30:47 GMT
No it's Sweeney and dollars to donuts Charlie goes to bat for his college buddy. No, Monty loves him, he singles him out as "great" and has done this a few times this season. It's his call on playing him at this point. All on him and his staff. Sweeney got Peeke, got Shat, and Lohrei is sticking around....this is on Monty. Wotherspoon has been dicked around for no reason--wish he would give him some of the love. Shat gets a 3-point game, and has tremendous chemistry on the PP and with 88---and he barely can crack lineup. ALL COACHING. I love this kind of thing. You watch the game on TV once. You have no idea what the coaches are telling the D to focus on in prep/game day meetings or practices, or the nuances of how "the system" is designed other than by watching games, largely from a fixed camera on one side of the ice that tends to focus most of the attention on the puck. Often, you can't see how the positioning of players who aren't in focus might affect the decision-making or option of the players with the puck just because of the camera work, and unless you're going to tell me you watch the players without the puck to see what they're doing while the camera focuses on the puck, all of that means you have an extremely curated view of the games. Which, don't get me wrong, still give you a lot of info to take in. But based on that, you're going to say the coaching staff that a) makes the gameplan, b) communicates expectations to the players, c) and depends on them to do their jobs (rather than just freelance for offense) are wrong to trust certain players more than others? I mean, I don't think for a second that coaches are above criticism, but in cases like this where all three of the guys you cite here as being "blocked" by Grz have essentially been out-competed by him, it just sounds like you're not willing to acknowledge the possibility that he does what the coaches ask of him better than they do. Lohrei has been boom and bust all year. He's a developing player with great potential, but sometimes you sit a player like that when you feel like he's going the wrong way. Shattenkirk is a known liability defensively and has been for years, just like his PP abilities. But like Lohrei, he's a net minus player. Somehow, Grz can be sheltered enough to be a +9 but they can't even with a coaching staff willing to provide that shelter. Peake has been effective since arriving in Boston and he hasn't missed a game since he got into the lineup post trade. Wotherspoon has been the odd man out with the Peake acquisition and just got an extension, so you know they like him, but he's played fewer minutes than Grz throughout his time in Boston, and is likely still acclimating to the system and his responsibilities in it. But the coaches are wrong. And they're probably just kowtowing to McAvoy who has some sort of almost uncomfortable attachment to his college buddy. That must be it. |
|
|
|
Post by dannycater on Mar 26, 2024 16:44:50 GMT
No, Monty loves him, he singles him out as "great" and has done this a few times this season. It's his call on playing him at this point. All on him and his staff. Sweeney got Peeke, got Shat, and Lohrei is sticking around....this is on Monty. Wotherspoon has been dicked around for no reason--wish he would give him some of the love. Shat gets a 3-point game, and has tremendous chemistry on the PP and with 88---and he barely can crack lineup. ALL COACHING. I love this kind of thing. You watch the game on TV once. You have no idea what the coaches are telling the D to focus on in prep/game day meetings or practices, or the nuances of how "the system" is designed other than by watching games, largely from a fixed camera on one side of the ice that tends to focus most of the attention on the puck. Often, you can't see how the positioning of players who aren't in focus might affect the decision-making or option of the players with the puck just because of the camera work, and unless you're going to tell me you watch the players without the puck to see what they're doing while the camera focuses on the puck, all of that means you have an extremely curated view of the games. Which, don't get me wrong, still give you a lot of info to take in. But based on that, you're going to say the coaching staff that a) makes the gameplan, b) communicates expectations to the players, c) and depends on them to do their jobs (rather than just freelance for offense) are wrong to trust certain players more than others? I mean, I don't think for a second that coaches are above criticism, but in cases like this where all three of the guys you cite here as being "blocked" by Grz have essentially been out-competed by him, it just sounds like you're not willing to acknowledge the possibility that he does what the coaches ask of him better than they do. Lohrei has been boom and bust all year. He's a developing player with great potential, but sometimes you sit a player like that when you feel like he's going the wrong way. Shattenkirk is a known liability defensively and has been for years, just like his PP abilities. But like Lohrei, he's a net minus player. Somehow, Grz can be sheltered enough to be a +9 but they can't even with a coaching staff willing to provide that shelter. Peake has been effective since arriving in Boston and he hasn't missed a game since he got into the lineup post trade. Wotherspoon has been the odd man out with the Peake acquisition and just got an extension, so you know they like him, but he's played fewer minutes than Grz throughout his time in Boston, and is likely still acclimating to the system and his responsibilities in it. But the coaches are wrong. And they're probably just kowtowing to McAvoy who has some sort of almost uncomfortable attachment to his college buddy. That must be it. So you agree, great. |
|
|
|
Post by bookboy007 on Mar 26, 2024 17:49:18 GMT
I love this kind of thing. You watch the game on TV once. You have no idea what the coaches are telling the D to focus on in prep/game day meetings or practices, or the nuances of how "the system" is designed other than by watching games, largely from a fixed camera on one side of the ice that tends to focus most of the attention on the puck. Often, you can't see how the positioning of players who aren't in focus might affect the decision-making or option of the players with the puck just because of the camera work, and unless you're going to tell me you watch the players without the puck to see what they're doing while the camera focuses on the puck, all of that means you have an extremely curated view of the games. Which, don't get me wrong, still give you a lot of info to take in. But based on that, you're going to say the coaching staff that a) makes the gameplan, b) communicates expectations to the players, c) and depends on them to do their jobs (rather than just freelance for offense) are wrong to trust certain players more than others? I mean, I don't think for a second that coaches are above criticism, but in cases like this where all three of the guys you cite here as being "blocked" by Grz have essentially been out-competed by him, it just sounds like you're not willing to acknowledge the possibility that he does what the coaches ask of him better than they do. Lohrei has been boom and bust all year. He's a developing player with great potential, but sometimes you sit a player like that when you feel like he's going the wrong way. Shattenkirk is a known liability defensively and has been for years, just like his PP abilities. But like Lohrei, he's a net minus player. Somehow, Grz can be sheltered enough to be a +9 but they can't even with a coaching staff willing to provide that shelter. Peake has been effective since arriving in Boston and he hasn't missed a game since he got into the lineup post trade. Wotherspoon has been the odd man out with the Peake acquisition and just got an extension, so you know they like him, but he's played fewer minutes than Grz throughout his time in Boston, and is likely still acclimating to the system and his responsibilities in it. But the coaches are wrong. And they're probably just kowtowing to McAvoy who has some sort of almost uncomfortable attachment to his college buddy. That must be it. So you agree, great. That conclusion confirms my autodisagree should be removed from Sizz and reapplied here. |
|
|
|
Post by MrHulot on Mar 26, 2024 18:21:32 GMT
when the thread title is GRYZ SUCKS..it's evident very few participants are interested in objectivity. He DOESN'T. If he could be re-signed for 2 years, at 2mil per...the Bruins would be brain dead, not to nail him down. That opportunity probably won't happen. So he doesn't suck. I'm also getting bored with the nonsense that every time this team loses, or has a goal scored on them...it's his fault. Support group meetings are Sundays at 7pm. Card carrying members get 20% pints of Yeungling or Moosehead. Yuengling. Niedermayer. For a book reader (or book writer) who apparently likes beer and hockey, you seem to have a real problem with some vowels.
Get it fixed, man.
Just sayin'...  
|
|
|
|
Post by bookboy007 on Mar 26, 2024 18:31:09 GMT
Support group meetings are Sundays at 7pm. Card carrying members get 20% pints of Yeungling or Moosehead. Yuengling. Niedermayer. For a book reader (or book writer) who apparently likes beer and hockey, you seem to have a real problem with some vowels.
Get it fixed, man.
Just sayin'...
I apply lower editorial standards to board posts than books. |
|
|
|
Post by dannycater on Mar 26, 2024 18:36:50 GMT
Yuengling. Niedermayer. For a book reader (or book writer) who apparently likes beer and hockey, you seem to have a real problem with some vowels.
Get it fixed, man.
Just sayin'...
I apply lower editorial standards to board posts than books. I would also that you have low standards when it comes to B's defensemen. |
|
|
|
Post by bookboy007 on Mar 26, 2024 18:51:42 GMT
I apply lower editorial standards to board posts than books. I would also that you have low standards when it comes to B's defensemen. No, but I do have a low tolerance for grown men acting like mean girls because a bottom six defenseman isn't a Norris candidate...unless he's played only a handful of NHL games, in which case they fall in love with him because he's obviously the next Bobby Orr. |
|
|
|
Post by Fletcher on Mar 26, 2024 19:00:26 GMT
Yuengling. Niedermayer. For a book reader (or book writer) who apparently likes beer and hockey, you seem to have a real problem with some vowels.
Get it fixed, man.
Just sayin'...
I apply lower editorial standards to board posts than books. You don't respect us. |
|
