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Post by Deleted on Sept 19, 2015 15:10:43 GMT
Yeah, I don't care...
I have two body types, almost fat and trying not to be fat.
My girlfriend and I both cook very well, that makes the fitness process next to impossible.
I take a vitamin, walk my dog 45 minutes a day, and drink diet soda. That's enough for me, but when my last Aussie died, boy, I got fat in a hurry.
My mother's family is Italian, so the whole "no carb" nonsense isn't happening. My favorite weeknight meal is ziti with homemade hot/sweet Italian sausage from the butcher shop. (Make sure to put a few TBLs of the pasta water in with the sauce). I'm no dieitician, but the whole "no carb" thing seems to be more about losing weight than actual health. But then again, I rarely eat junk food, but I've been overweight since I got a desk job, so they're probably on to something.
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Post by jmwalters on Sept 19, 2015 15:29:47 GMT
You make it sound like prison. My wife sometimes makes it sound that way. Yes, it must be just horrible to have sex daily....I mean it sounds like a worst nightmare situation!  |
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Post by jmwalters on Sept 19, 2015 15:34:16 GMT
Well, I was heavier, I've dropped about 15 lbs. I had dropped 28, but I got off the wagon. Here's what has worked for me. I just have to gain consistency doing it. No sugar at all - check salad dressings, ketchup has sugar in it, check all ingredients. No carbs - so no grains, so no bread, no potatoes, rice, corn. DON'T avoid fats, in fact, seek them out. See if you can find whole milk yogurt and enjoy your steaks, have olive oil with your salads. Here's what is going on, simple carbs (sugar) and carbs are more easily digestible than protein. IT IS all about calorie reduction, and the fats are much more satiating than the low fat food, and once you've limited your food choices enough you get tired of eating them and will eat less. Then of course, working out on top of that. Having said that, there is no one size fits all for diets. The only thing that really works is the "n+1 experiment" - what works for you. Get a scale that measures weight, hydration and fat percentage. Keep track of what you eat everyday along with your weight, fat% and h20% - every day. The fat% and hydration% are important because you can easily gain or lose several pounds of water weight easily. The food diary will prove out what works for you. And its only the diet that works for you that matters. The problem with your "no sugar, no carbs" diet is that it's a diet. People who go on a diet don't keep up with it and eventually gain all the weight back and usually end up heavier than they were before the diet. A lot of people make a lot of money on yo-yo dieters. Eat a balanced diet from all food groups. Our portions are way out wack. Only put three quarters of what you were originally planning on putting on your plate. Most of us eat until we're stuffed, not until we're not hungry anymore. Exercise. It doesn't matter what kind of exercise. Just exercise, work up a sweat.
Bingo!
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Post by Deleted on Sept 19, 2015 16:34:51 GMT
Ok I'm in. Weighed myself a couple days before Labor Day and I was 205. Heaviest I've ever been, and thoughts of Frank Costanza and Kramer dancing in the living room started to pop into my head. I've walked 2.5 miles every day for the last 2 weeks, cut out the soda (used to drink 1.5-2 cans of Ginger Ale a day, every day) cut out the cookis after lunch, eating much less carbs, and smaller portion sizes of everything I put in my mouth. Down to 199 today - my goal weight is 190. Thanks for doing this Bhab, it's good to have some support.
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Post by badhabitude on Sept 19, 2015 19:29:37 GMT
My wife is a vegan, and of course I do the no sugar no grain. I read a lot about the "no wheat" lifestyle and my wife reads a lot about being a vegan - and also juicing. There seems to be one point that the experts agree upon and that is that there are too many carbs and sugar in a typical American diet. None of this is working. Try something different. Or add something different, what I'm missing is regular workouts. After I play hockey or get in a hard workout I always drop 3-5 lbs., probably 1-2 is "real" because hydration is typically down also. |
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Post by badhabitude on Sept 19, 2015 19:34:26 GMT
Ok I'm in. Weighed myself a couple days before Labor Day and I was 205. Heaviest I've ever been, and thoughts of Frank Costanza and Kramer dancing in the living room started to pop into my head. I've walked 2.5 miles every day for the last 2 weeks, cut out the soda (used to drink 1.5-2 cans of Ginger Ale a day, every day) cut out the cookis after lunch, eating much less carbs, and smaller portion sizes of everything I put in my mouth. Down to 199 today - my goal weight is 190. Thanks for doing this Bhab, it's good to have some support. Most important keep track of what you are eating and weight, over time you will see what works for you. That is the most critical thing, the "n+1" experiment, it doesn't matter what any studies say, the only experiment that matters is your own. Another critical factor for me is sleep. If I don't get enough sleep and if I feel it by being tired, I'm much more likely to overeat almost every time. |
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Post by badhabitude on Sept 19, 2015 19:36:21 GMT
I agree, vegan diets can be excellent if the foods are in balance. Protein though is a must if you are active. I paint houses (still left over from teaching summers). This week I was up 38 feet on ladders. Up and down constantly. Tuna fish out of the can with an apples helped the energy all day. I cooked Haddock and brown rice on Monday evening. I had rice and fish in the morning the next few days for the big breakfast. I had strength during most of the day. I have several acres of land on other days to work on. Next year I am planning to hike Mt. Monadnock 20 times during the summer in preparation for the Long Trail the following summer. I only wish I could skate fluidly or find ice up here in NH. BTW no wheat is great, after many years of eating and drinking I have to curtail wheat intake. I now have to drink Psyllium each day for fiber, old man's drink. Lastly dried fruits have lots of sugar but are excellent for digestion. They actually are better than fresh fruits and juicers. Given that I'm doing only protein and veg I take metamucil every night as well. A big heapin helping. I'm pretty regular and always go first thing in the morning anyway, the only difference I notice with the metamucil is that its more of an urgent matter. |
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Post by badhabitude on Sept 19, 2015 19:39:15 GMT
The problem with your "no sugar, no carbs" diet is that it's a diet. People who go on a diet don't keep up with it and eventually gain all the weight back and usually end up heavier than they were before the diet. A lot of people make a lot of money on yo-yo dieters. Eat a balanced diet from all food groups. Our portions are way out wack. Only put three quarters of what you were originally planning on putting on your plate. Most of us eat until we're stuffed, not until we're not hungry anymore. Exercise. It doesn't matter what kind of exercise. Just exercise, work up a sweat. It's okay. No one is perfect. When things change, lifestyles and habits change. In the past six years I've been close to 195lbs and 125lbs. Some years I just don't give a fuck and eat a whole pizza followed by a pint of B&J. Other years I'm working out six days a week and can tell you every calorie I took in that day. Want change, get change. Don't want change, don't get it.I'm sick of feeling sick all the time. My memory of the days when my resting pulse was 24 and there was a real danger of passing out if I stood up too quickly seems fresher than it ever had been. I guess it took the prediabetes and high cholesterol in addition to feeling crap all the time was the wake up call I needed. |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 20, 2015 10:57:34 GMT
Ok I'm in. Weighed myself a couple days before Labor Day and I was 205. Heaviest I've ever been, and thoughts of Frank Costanza and Kramer dancing in the living room started to pop into my head. I've walked 2.5 miles every day for the last 2 weeks, cut out the soda (used to drink 1.5-2 cans of Ginger Ale a day, every day) cut out the cookis after lunch, eating much less carbs, and smaller portion sizes of everything I put in my mouth. Down to 199 today - my goal weight is 190. Thanks for doing this Bhab, it's good to have some support. Most important keep track of what you are eating and weight, over time you will see what works for you. That is the most critical thing, the "n+1" experiment, it doesn't matter what any studies say, the only experiment that matters is your own. Another critical factor for me is sleep. If I don't get enough sleep and if I feel it by being tired, I'm much more likely to overeat almost every time. I don't want to call what I'm doing an official "diet", rather it's a long-term lifestyle change that will promote better health and longevity. I don't want to be a slave to everything I eat and don't want to deprive myself of too many foods that I like. But replacing soda with water, cutting back on sweets and carbs, and doing daily exercise isn't really a big deal. So my plan is to try this for a couple months and see how it impacts my weight. Luckily I'm not seriously overweight so just trying to live a cleaner life is good enough for me! |
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Post by bookboy007 on Sept 20, 2015 13:32:43 GMT
Wow. I feel like I've just watched every season of Oprah....
Most people only need to know the simple to be healthy. The simple is about 5 things.
1. you don't lose weight by exercising. Whoever on here said something like if you burn more calories than you take in, you lose weight; if you take in more calories than you burn, you gain weight was right. There's a great series of videos that makes this really easy to see - one guy does some kind of high intensity workout - Kettlebells, elliptical, cross-country machine, whatever. The other guy eats a typical garbage food meal - a medium pizza, a cheeseburger, fries and a shake etc. In the time it takes the eating guy to take on 1500 calories, the other guy working his ass off has burned maybe...250? You can't outwork the math on this.
Exercise is important for a huge variety of other things; it gets your metabolism up, it switches on different hormones etc that kick your brain out of resting/refueling and into working, so you don't crave food and your body is set to use its stores. Just don't get caught in thinking that you can work a pizza off.
2. water is your friend. Your brain has a really hard time distinguishing between dehydration and hunger because part of dehydration is the salts and other stuff your body needs are also out of whack when you haven't had enough water. So you eat a bag of chips and have a coke and you feel even more hungry than before because you haven't met the need for water. Water also acts as bulk in your system. It's the original zero calorie drink.
3. Know the carb cycle. Cutting carbs is okay for some people, and it's really hard on others. And all carbs aren't the same. Same with sugar. But rather than get a glycemic index text book, try to limit the size of your servings for things like pasta and bread and rice, and try to eat them before you need energy, not before you plan to sleep. Carbs, especially "white" or processed carbs, get sugar into your blood fairly quickly, but it's quick burning sugar. If you're active and need the carbs right away, that's great - you burn the energy. If you have a big plate of ziti, then take a two hour nap, all that sugar's going to get converted to fat and then you're going to get that sugar crash where you're low energy and hungry.
4. Nothing processed, or as little processed as possible.
5. No fads, no "weight loss diet". We use the word diet to mean some sort of program you put yourself on for however long it takes to lose weight. It really refers to what you eat and how you eat it regardless. When I'm eating Double Downs and bacon cheeseburgers from 5 Guys, that's still a part of my diet. So you have to think in terms of what you can maintain. I can't maintain a vegan lifestyle. I can't maintain a diet that requires me to spend 20 hours a week in the kitchen. And I'm eating red meat so fuck off with that. But I'm willing to eat less of things, keep track of portions (gnb's 3/4 rule's a good start) etc.
Everything that works is a variant on this. My mother in law is the poster beyatch for why you don't want to go down the rabbit hole. She'll read something or watch Oprah and stop eating thing x and eat tons of thing y. Then three months later, we'll find out thing y is contaminated and thing x contains vital nutrients for your liver health. You can make yourself miserable putting fish oil on your greek yogurt with kasha because one off science studies show there are benefits to eating these things, or you can realize there are benefits to eating just about everything and risk as well. Stick to the simple and, like me, you can be only 25-30lbs overweight while drinking half a litre of liquor every night and keeping Cuba's economy strong!
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Post by Deleted on Sept 20, 2015 15:29:09 GMT
While we're talking about Oprah episodes....I said to my wife the other day "Why doesn't Kris Jenner Kardashian or whatever the fuck her name is just get a sex change operation too, and then he and Caitlin can get back together again and live happyily aver after." She actually said that wansn't a bad idea and I agree...
But back to the "diet" thing...everything that book says is right and I would even go so far as to say that whatever it is you eat every day is simply due to habit - it's a learned behavior that can be changed by simply substituting a shitty habit (eating potato chips) with a better-for-you habit (banana or apple slices with peanutbutter). Making the change is tough at first, but once you're brain learns the behavior, it's no big deal. It's the same with addictions, whether it's alcohol or drugs or porn (sorry shupe)...you just have to substitute the bad behavior with a better one and by doing it every day, your brain changes it's craving and is eventually satisfied by the new behavior.
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Post by NAS on Sept 20, 2015 15:49:33 GMT
Porn is not bad behavior.
Anyway, you can get used to a lot of different things for consumption. Your taste buds change. Try drinking your coffee with skim milk instead of cream, and at the same time, remove the sugar. After a few weeks, it'll become the norm and be much better for you. Gotta have that cheese or it's just no good? Try it without cheese for a few weeks.
One of the biggest culprits is butter. Butter is bad. Remove it for a few weeks. You'll be okay.
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Post by bookboy007 on Sept 21, 2015 1:42:04 GMT
God, no. Butter is fantastic! The worst thing you could do to yourself is sub out butter for margarine. As Colbert said on one of his first episodes of Late Night, someone should make those fuckers admit they knew damn well it wasn't butter all along!
Butter and cheese are just to be enjoyed in moderation unless you are trying to get ripped. Eat less than a tbsp. of butter a day, you're good and the few things you put it on will be so much more satisfying. The key to cheese. It's not a condiment. Don't use cheese like you use ketchup or mustard or relish. Like cheese? Get some good cheese some fruit. Just don't pull a nite and eat an entire wheel of it.
But yeah, do something for a while and it becomes your preferred normal. I used to drink gallons of coffee with cream and sugar. Now I drink it black, and the blacker the better. Can't stand it with cream and sugar any more - like Dip'n'sticks, it's behind me.
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Post by NAS on Sept 21, 2015 12:21:42 GMT
Not sub it for margarine or I Can't Believe.
Just eliminate it.
I put hot sauce on just about anything someone would put butter on. Start with toast.
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Post by Fletcher on Sept 21, 2015 14:01:08 GMT
Great thread, btw. I care if it belongs on the Proboards 'Mommy Blog ' I like NAS's point about the changing taste buds/desires. I think the body wants what it gets, after pretty small adjustment periods. Eat an apple every day at noon for a couple weeks, and the next day all you want at noon is an apple. I the past year, I've almost completely cut out red meat and I quit soda completely. I liked both a lot. I never miss them anymore. I also like the point that you just can't exercise enough to conquer bad eating, at least not anymore. I used to eat whatever I wanted and then exercise. Done. No problem. That's has changed in a big way, and like Book said it is really, really hard to burn off 2000 calories. But if you have a big pizza and 3 beers, that's about where you're at. Unless you're running a marathon, those calories aren't anywhere, except straight to the gut. I drink a lot of beer and it keeps me from ever having a flat stomach, no matter how much I work out. For me it's all about really making the decision. I usually half-ass it. Like, 'I want to lose a few pounds and get in shape, but I'm not gonna go nuts'. Still want to drink beer and eat burritos. The results are always marginal. But a few times I have really made the decision to go all out. Eat right, exercise, with no excuses. The weight comes off easy and it honestly isn't even hard once you really make a sincere decision to do it. A couple good documentaries out there, which I caught on Netflix -- 'Forks over Knives' and 'Fed up'. Even if you're not buying everything they're preaching, these are really interesting and impactful. |
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Post by bookboy007 on Sept 21, 2015 15:38:49 GMT
Not sub it for margarine or I Can't Believe. Just eliminate it. I put hot sauce on just about anything someone would put butter on. Start with toast. I put the butter thing in the category of diddling the margins - the kind of diet rhetoric that isn't sustainable. Too many of these weight yoyos are based on cutting salad dressing, butter, and other things you put on food rather than changing what you eat. People will eat a salad with salt and lemon juice for a month if they're really committed to losing weight, but then they stop eating salad or veggies altogether because Fuck That Lemon Juice Shit! And they balloon up again. You need to lose 20+ pounds, cutting out butter isn't the answer unless you're putting half a cup of it over your air popped corn etc. Enough to make steamed vegetables appealing probably adds 50 calories. It's a natural food (insofar as eating things made from the breastmilk of other animals can be), so your body knows what to do with all of it. Salad dressings with stabilizers and other crap are far worse. That said, putting hot sauce on things goes a looooong way to giving you better bang for your poached chicken breast and zucchini. |
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Post by The OC on Sept 21, 2015 16:37:51 GMT
This is a great topic and something I find timely for me personally. I agree with a lot of what Book is saying here, great advice.
For me personally, I had a bit of an "ah-ha" moment last Christmas chatting with my bro. I'm a fairly active guy, play decent hockey 2-3 times a week and have been fairly focused on weight training on and off for several years now. For about 5 years before that I was fairly inactive for about 5 years, and lost a lot of the strength and conditioning I had enjoyed most of my life and when playing competitive sports. Anyway, I had been giving a lot of internal thought to playing hockey and had some frustration that I couldn't seem to excel anymore. I would have occasional good shifts or games, but in my youth I could typically dominate at will against most groups of players in casual play. Nowadays though, I would hardly stand out. Most would say "age" was a factor, but I didn't really buy that as I feel just as fast or strong and for the most part smarter than my younger years. But it dawned on me at one point that while I could go fast for a shift these days, I couldn't play top speed for multiple shift. A couple runs up the ice and I was done. And forget about intense back checking. My skills weren't gone, but my conditioning certainly was.
So my bro and I are chatting about the topic and he mentioned that when he played Junior he weighed in at 145lbs. I thought...seriously? 145? He's about my size - a little under 6 feet, although I'm a little naturally heavier. But the number sunk in because at the time I weighed 188lbs, and I was pretty happy as I had lost 10 lbs over the last while from my peak above 195. I realized that 188 was still vastly overwheight for someone playing competitive sports - thus I was not capable of competing like I once was.
But then the big change happened in my dietary life. My girlfriend, who is a marvelous cook and loves to bake sweets, found out her sugars were too high. So she began examining the sugar content of everything we eat and eliminating it. She cooks a lot from scratch so a lot is in her control. We already had a low-preservative diet as I can't eat that stuff. But once refined sugar was taken out, the impact was profound. I've lost over 10 pounds in a couple months with little exercise and little effort. She's actually lost close to 20.
And here's the kicker: outside of sugar, we eat everything we want. Whole milk. Cheese. Butter. Beer (low carb). Bacon. Chicken wings. Steak. Never a thought is given except for sugar and preservative content. We do keep portions reasonable (one piece of lasagna is good enough), and carbs in general are kept in check so a smallish plate of pasta rather than a giant one. We also have salads fairly often with our main dishes. But meat and protein is strongly encouraged - it's good for you and fills you up so you don't snack as much on chips or cookies. I'm currently an easy 175lbs and still dropping without effort. Hockey season's coming, so I'm about to add some cardio and I expect the weight loss to accelerate.
I find this all connects well with the 3 rookies who failed the sprint test. That test is interesting because it simulates 3 hard shifts in a row at top speed. This is the very thing that I feel I can't do anymore these days and would like to be able to do again. I know for a fact I'd never be able to do it right now, but I would embrace giving it a go after another 10 lbs is gone and I've done some training. It would be interesting if any of us fatties or former fatties can do it.
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Post by bookboy007 on Sept 21, 2015 17:05:38 GMT
Oh, by the way, I just downed a fantastic burrito....
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Post by Fletcher on Sept 21, 2015 17:21:48 GMT
I would love to sidebar into beer choices here. Kingconq mentioned low carb beer, which is gross. Some runner friends of mine drink Michelob Ultra stuff, which is also just horrible. Gluten-free beer is about the worst alcoholic beverage I have had.
I like IPAs, but I also drink Guinness, which is surprisingly a lower-calorie option. Any other ideas for minimizing the impacts of a vice that I am not willing to give up?
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Post by walktheline on Sept 21, 2015 18:01:19 GMT
I would love to sidebar into beer choices here. Kingconq mentioned low carb beer, which is gross. Some runner friends of mine drink Michelob Ultra stuff, which is also just horrible. Gluten-free beer is about the worst alcoholic beverage I have had. I like IPAs, but I also drink Guinness, which is surprisingly a lower-calorie option. Any other ideas for minimizing the impacts of a vice that I am not willing to give up? Sure. Switch to e-cigs. Up your meth intake. It's a natural appetite suppressant plus you'll lose all your teeth which is approx. .25lbs. Every bit counts! Double down on vodka. No carbs!
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Post by The OC on Sept 21, 2015 18:05:35 GMT
I'm Canadian, so my options are a bit different. I was in NY last week and found none of my usuals there, naturally. In Canada my go-to beer is Sleaman's Clear. It is not only low carb and preservative free, but it tastes like heaven. Being a Nova Scotian, I drank Keith's all my life but I gradually made the switch and find it hard to go back to the harsher taste of an IPA. In the US I'm a fan of Coors, Bud Light or Sam Adams, but they don't have the same benefits of Sleaman's. I also like Rolling Rock, which I think is out of Pennsylvania. My woman really likes Molson 67 which is about as low-carb as you can get, and a little lighter on the alcohol content.
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Post by Fletcher on Sept 21, 2015 19:30:22 GMT
I'm Canadian, so my options are a bit different. I was in NY last week and found none of my usuals there, naturally. In Canada my go-to beer is Sleaman's Clear. It is not only low carb and preservative free, but it tastes like heaven. Being a Nova Scotian, I drank Keith's all my life but I gradually made the switch and find it hard to go back to the harsher taste of an IPA. In the US I'm a fan of Coors, Bud Light or Sam Adams, but they don't have the same benefits of Sleaman's. I also like Rolling Rock, which I think is out of Pennsylvania. My woman really likes Molson 67 which is about as low-carb as you can get, and a little lighter on the alcohol content. Coors, Bud Light, Rolling Rock...? Did you take a hockey puck to the taste bud region? I had a summer party at my house last year and we had a blind taste test consisting of six shot glasses with Bud Light, Coors Light, Natural Light, PBR, Keystone Light, and Miller Light. At least a dozen guys tried it, some with a lot of confidence. Nobody beat 2 out of 6 correct. And that's just basic probability that someone would guess two right. They're generally indistinguishable. I don't know what Sleaman's is. The only Canadian beers we seem to get here are Molson and Labatts. |
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Post by The OC on Sept 21, 2015 19:44:49 GMT
I'm Canadian, so my options are a bit different. I was in NY last week and found none of my usuals there, naturally. In Canada my go-to beer is Sleaman's Clear. It is not only low carb and preservative free, but it tastes like heaven. Being a Nova Scotian, I drank Keith's all my life but I gradually made the switch and find it hard to go back to the harsher taste of an IPA. In the US I'm a fan of Coors, Bud Light or Sam Adams, but they don't have the same benefits of Sleaman's. I also like Rolling Rock, which I think is out of Pennsylvania. My woman really likes Molson 67 which is about as low-carb as you can get, and a little lighter on the alcohol content. Coors, Bud Light, Rolling Rock...? Did you take a hockey puck to the taste bud region? I had a summer party at my house last year and we had a blind taste test consisting of six shot glasses with Bud Light, Coors Light, Natural Light, PBR, Keystone Light, and Miller Light. At least a dozen guys tried it, some with a lot of confidence. Nobody beat 2 out of 6 correct. And that's just basic probability that someone would guess two right. They're generally indistinguishable. I don't know what Sleaman's is. The only Canadian beers we seem to get here are Molson and Labatts. Haha, I just like light beer that's all. Since you like a Guinness now and then, you obviously like the darker stuff to some extent. Love Rolling Rock, Coors and BL are "good enough" beers, especially at a pub when they have sub-zero on tap. Sleeman's is like most light beer, just better in every way. It's too bad it's Canada-only. I don't know if there's a comparable. |
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Post by The OC on Sept 21, 2015 19:49:01 GMT
 Mmm... delicious. The far left is Clear, which is low carb and my favorite. But I like them all, including Honey Brown. Everyone I offer it too is sometimes skeptical, and then ends up loving it, even old-timers. Good events seem to follow it as well... |
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Post by bookboy007 on Sept 21, 2015 20:17:52 GMT
I would love to sidebar into beer choices here. Kingconq mentioned low carb beer, which is gross. Some runner friends of mine drink Michelob Ultra stuff, which is also just horrible. Gluten-free beer is about the worst alcoholic beverage I have had. I like IPAs, but I also drink Guinness, which is surprisingly a lower-calorie option. Any other ideas for minimizing the impacts of a vice that I am not willing to give up? Sure. Switch to e-cigs. Up your meth intake. It's a natural appetite suppressant plus you'll lose all your teeth which is approx. .25lbs. Every bit counts! Double down on vodka. No carbs!
Alcohol? Carb. I have had a routine for years: summer I drink primarily beer; winter I drink primarily spirits. I'm not generally hi-ball guy. Give me a neat single malt, a bourbon, a martini...even some of the higher end sipping rums and tequilas. Side of water (don't put it in the booze...use it to keep from drinking the booze like it's beer). 4 oz of good whiskey or bourbon is about 380 calories. 4 bottles of IPA is about 625. This summer, for the first time in my life, I got a jones for GnTs. One of those things where, one night with friends, we had polished off everything else in the liquor cabinet except a bottle of Bombay Sapphire (hiding in the freezer) and there were lemons and a couple of cans of tonic in the fridge. I probably hadn't had a GnT since I was 18. Hot summer night, it was perfect. But the tonic adds about 100 calories to each drink, so now each drink is about 300 (I makes 'em strong...). Learn from this what you will.... |
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